I've just been curious about how much power you can safely put to the wheels of a stock TD04 turbo since im looking to protune and would like to get a decent output without changing the turbo.
Thanks
Brett T.
Thanks
Brett T.
CitizenBT
I've seen people push up to 18 psi through a TD04, but I wouldn't go over 15-16... not because it'll puke, but it pretty much becomes a useless hairdryer at that rate. It just runs out of breath and can't move enough air to be efficient.
but 15-16lbs of boost is barely more then the stage 1 tune puts out....as far as i could tell atleast...it seems as if im pushing out .08 bar...so like 12 13 psi?...so 15-16 would be putting down say...245whp? 250-265wtrq?
Thanks
Brett T.
Thanks
Brett T.
Can't relate to whp directly, but in the UK the normal guideline aplied to a TD04 is circa 280fwhp with 'normal' supporting mods (2.0 or 2.5 engines, not non JDM Forester 2.0), significant additional supporting mods can just about eek out 300fwhp (so I guess that would be about 215 and 235whp) generally the TD04 is considered good for about 1.15bar (just under 17psi) of boost before the inefficiency decrease renders any more boost acedemic in terms of the side effect of inlet air temp and turbine back pressure so more 'boost' gives no more power. This applies to 2.0 and 2.5, the 2.5 has a torque advantage but not power.
In the UK the Andy Forrest Hybrid TD04 (larger compressor) is good for about another 0.1 bar (1.5psi) boost and gives a small power increase (circa 10-15fwhp), but a noticeable benefit in terms of 'area under the (torque) curve'.
Simon
In the UK the Andy Forrest Hybrid TD04 (larger compressor) is good for about another 0.1 bar (1.5psi) boost and gives a small power increase (circa 10-15fwhp), but a noticeable benefit in terms of 'area under the (torque) curve'.
Simon
This is on my 2.0L, but a turbo's MAF rate is independent of engine displacement...
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f107/e85-chronicles-tuning-49395/
With more supporting mods, I'm sure you could do better than 222whp. BUT not much better.
These 13T TD04's aren't worth much more than 300chp, which puts you at about 250whp under the best conditions. I'd say your doing well if you hit 240whp...
I've tuned a number of 2.5L TD04's. Best method is to shoot for 18-20 psi in the mid range and taper it out to ~11-12 psi by redline. Of course, you will be reducing your turbo's life. Don't expect more than 100k miles out of it...
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f107/e85-chronicles-tuning-49395/
With more supporting mods, I'm sure you could do better than 222whp. BUT not much better.
These 13T TD04's aren't worth much more than 300chp, which puts you at about 250whp under the best conditions. I'd say your doing well if you hit 240whp...
I've tuned a number of 2.5L TD04's. Best method is to shoot for 18-20 psi in the mid range and taper it out to ~11-12 psi by redline. Of course, you will be reducing your turbo's life. Don't expect more than 100k miles out of it...
well going by cobbs maps...the stock turbo foresters with a stage 2 map put out around 220-235whp which im going staeg 2 soon as i have money...im just trying to a handle on if i should get a bigger turbo prior to going for a serious goal...like im shooting for 300whp once i start getting more "mod crazy" but was hopeing i could push 250whp out of the td04 which is seeming unlikely...thus i'd prolly have to get a vf39/vf43 to get that power safe before i get a protune.
Thanks for the help
Brett T.
Thanks for the help
Brett T.
Chasing hp numbers is pretty useless, as different dynos will produce different results based on their type, calibration, elevation, temperature, humidity, etc. Your tuner can tweak a dyno to show any hp you want to see, if that's all you're after. I think if you're trying to decide between the stock TD04 and a turbo upgrade, it would be more beneficial to concern yourself with real world driveability. The fact is, the TD04 will run out of steam upwards of ~5k rpm and just simply blow hot air at that point. It's great for down-low, instant-spool torque, but it's useless and just too small for the 2.5 powerplant in the higher ranges of the powerband.
+1 for not chasing numbers, bench racing is useless. Cobb's numbers are too high and their OTS maps are not great, every car and driver is different.
Find a good tuner and trust their experience. 15psi does not correspond to a specific amount of power to the wheels, there are other variables involved. Some cars with less boost will dust other cars that run more boost, it's all in the efficiency of the tune and driver's ability.
Stan
Find a good tuner and trust their experience. 15psi does not correspond to a specific amount of power to the wheels, there are other variables involved. Some cars with less boost will dust other cars that run more boost, it's all in the efficiency of the tune and driver's ability.
Stan
Dave, assuming street car, pump gas and no meth, would you push the TD04 or rather get a cheapish VF turbo? Sound like there would be no self tuning involved either.
Stan
Stan
There is no way I would push a little dinky TD04 to 24psi and above. That is just asking for destruction and/or limited life span. Better to get a more efficient turbo that is better suited for a higher output. And like Silke stated, unless you have a seriously good cooling system, the turbo just becomes a hair dryer.
I would rather jump on a VF turbo vs. a TD04 for more power...if you just want a quick spool, hard to beat the TD04 but at the upper ends it just falls flat on its face...but this subject has been beaten to death.
Well im looking for a turbo that spools fast enough for street use but can still pull late in the RPM range.....as far as goals i know shooting for whp numbers is kinda pointless due to dyno changes as stated but getting in a certian number range would give me an idea of how fast....im looking to be faster then the g37 and bmw 335i by a decent amount in the long run but would like to be able to keep up with them on the stock turbo if possible...but is seeming as that is going to be a hard goal to obtain on the TD04....anyone know how fast of a 1/4 mile the TD04 can pull without going nuts?...hoping for a 13-13.3 somewhere in that area altho not sure its possible
Thanks
Brett T.
Thanks
Brett T.
Are you looking to drag race, or is this your street car? A drag car can be gutted, lightened as much as possible, have slicks, beat up hard, but something will blow up eventually -- that's just the part of the game.
Your goals with the TD04 are not realistic IMO. You will not keep up with 335s and G37s, those are faster sports cars. Many will disagree with me and can probably even prove me wrong with isolated cases at the drag strip, but this is my opinion. I do not drag race but have driven my car with the TD04 for over 20K miles, it was not a very fast car. IMO you will not run low 13s consistently without doing some "magic" (lightening, meth, on-the-edge race-only tune, etc) AND being a superman driver, sorry.
With a nicely tuned VF* setup, mid 13s should be consistent and high 12s may be possible with a race tune. And it will still be a safe street car.
PS: TD04's fast spool is over-rated, IMO. I'll trade that for more power any day. VF43's spool feels just as quick but the car keeps pulling.
Stan
Your goals with the TD04 are not realistic IMO. You will not keep up with 335s and G37s, those are faster sports cars. Many will disagree with me and can probably even prove me wrong with isolated cases at the drag strip, but this is my opinion. I do not drag race but have driven my car with the TD04 for over 20K miles, it was not a very fast car. IMO you will not run low 13s consistently without doing some "magic" (lightening, meth, on-the-edge race-only tune, etc) AND being a superman driver, sorry.
With a nicely tuned VF* setup, mid 13s should be consistent and high 12s may be possible with a race tune. And it will still be a safe street car.
PS: TD04's fast spool is over-rated, IMO. I'll trade that for more power any day. VF43's spool feels just as quick but the car keeps pulling.
Stan
Before upgrading to a vf52, I pretty much enjoyed the tune of the td04 on my fxt09. However since its always working hard, doubt if its going to last long too.
Boost was set around 1.1 to 1.2 but it does fade out in higher rpms. Power to the right was simply lacking but good enough. So if you want to use the stock, go ahead. But if you're not satisfied, upgrading to a bigger turbo and retuning will add to the costs. Better to know what you want now to save money.
As for the vf52 (bolt on to the fxt09), power comes in peak at 3300 rpm. I'm using 650cc dw injectors with these as well. Boost is at 1.3 bar max but rarely hit it when just cruising
Boost also holds all the way to red line. This turbo has a bigger exhaust side compared to the vf43. Not sure about the 48 though (sti 08 stock)
Boost was set around 1.1 to 1.2 but it does fade out in higher rpms. Power to the right was simply lacking but good enough. So if you want to use the stock, go ahead. But if you're not satisfied, upgrading to a bigger turbo and retuning will add to the costs. Better to know what you want now to save money.
As for the vf52 (bolt on to the fxt09), power comes in peak at 3300 rpm. I'm using 650cc dw injectors with these as well. Boost is at 1.3 bar max but rarely hit it when just cruising
Boost also holds all the way to red line. This turbo has a bigger exhaust side compared to the vf43. Not sure about the 48 though (sti 08 stock)
I'm about to bring this back. Looks like it has been a good many years. My long anticipated build is complete, standalone tune pending. I've got a rallispec street spec bottom end new factory top end and many supporting mods. trying to crack the 300 barrier with a hybrid Td04 from FTW. THe owner/Builder claims its happiest at ~22 psi, and will make 300 easily. Puts the same turbo on his own persnal vehicles and has honda customers making over 400 running corn using them, as well as srt-4's. Very diffeent engines, granted. But still...I love my td04. If I can rip poop straight to 125 mph on back roads , hold that speed around corners without ever leaving boost then why the heck do I need to get a bigger turbo? These are rally cars. I respect its usefulness in gauging a vehicles speed compared to another vehicles speed, but why would anyone in their right mind really want to drag race a subaru in the first place? A vehicles drag time is not linearly representative of "how fast it is" in practice of actually driving. Hopefully I ruffled enough feathers in saying so to revive this discussion inclusive of some 13 yrs newer technology and tuning practices. I will definitely return to report on how successful and/or usless all of my efforts have been.
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Assuming you're running a 2.5L, why the insistence on running an undersized turbo? A VF48 spools more or less immediately and doesn't turn into an elaborate air heater quite as quickly. I will never understand why people get it in their heads that just because a TD04 won't grenade at 22 PSI, it's somehow a good idea to run one at that pressure. I assume those people have no idea what temperature does to air density, or they'd know that pressure up =/= more air if temperature increases at the same time.
Edit: at 125 mph (especially in a brick like a forester), a TD04 is out of air, plain and simple. Also, I'm not sure what "rally car" means to you, but 125 around corners is nothing like any rally car or course I've ever seen, and is much closer to the absolute max speed hit on a long straight. As many a time attack racer have found out, and Porsche has known for years, boxer engines REALLY don't like long high speed corners and you'd be advised to go full dry sump before trying them. There are a few time attack/endurance racers on NASIOC who have found good setups via trial and error and many, many spun bearings, I suggest you go do some reading over there.
Edit: at 125 mph (especially in a brick like a forester), a TD04 is out of air, plain and simple. Also, I'm not sure what "rally car" means to you, but 125 around corners is nothing like any rally car or course I've ever seen, and is much closer to the absolute max speed hit on a long straight. As many a time attack racer have found out, and Porsche has known for years, boxer engines REALLY don't like long high speed corners and you'd be advised to go full dry sump before trying them. There are a few time attack/endurance racers on NASIOC who have found good setups via trial and error and many, many spun bearings, I suggest you go do some reading over there.
First hater in the books.
Yes I am running a 2.5 or I wouldn't expect the results I am expecting, which is I assume what you're getting at. The turbo is not undersized, it's the one that the car came with. I'm pretty sure the team of engineers at subaru made a deliberate and well considered choice. So to answer your question as to why I would do that, its because I love this turbo, I love the response it has, its reliable and it works. I can have what feels like unlimited smiles with it. They're cheap and easy to obtain. Plus, its perfect for my desired end result, which is really is just to be "in the neighborhood" of 300. That being said I think it will be in excess of 300.
While I value people's experience, and that is indeed why I posted this, I dislike your condescending tone. You shouldn't assume that I'm doing what I'm doing all willy nilly without a second thought. I could be wrong, and maybe it wont be worth it, which I made pretty clear I understood in my original post. Also, I'm not going to run it at 22 psi, that would probably be dumb. But I am going to run it at 20!
Speaking of blowing a lot of hot air, your vague, completely untechnical armchair-engineering explantion of why it won't work, or even be a good idea Is not only merely your opinion, man, but it's totally meaningless because your expertise clearly fogged your vision when you read the words "hybrid td04". I probably know more about what you're attempting to explain than you do based on your level of butt-hurtyness.You don't know me, and I don't know you. The diffeence between us currently is that'm here to share a cool poject im working on with the fam, and you're just here to be a troll and try to fact shame that person who actually put the time and research into it... How about pragmatism? You can have your opinion WITHOUT being rude about it, while still being supportive and interested in what others are doing.
You should some research yourself, bub. Look up FTW turbos and see what they can do on engines with even smaller displacements than my own with a hybrid TD04, its fantastic. Or maybe stop a moment and consider supporting mods? Or better yet what are the differences between the stock TD04-L and the modded one I got back? same chassis, but it flows more.
As for your comment about the 125 mph speed: The car is not "out of air". plain and simple. It has just reached a point near to its maximum which means its still pushing a metric poop ton of air. Enough air in fact ( just enough! for the car to function flawlessly. imagine that, those computer thingies work after all!) The fact you think you need a dry sump to do that just tells me you've never done it. I've given my car the beans in this manner for 7 years without issue on stock engine stock turbo and stock oiling system. Additionally, rally racers do these things on the regular my dude. If they don't, then I'm in the wrong line of work.
Yes I am running a 2.5 or I wouldn't expect the results I am expecting, which is I assume what you're getting at. The turbo is not undersized, it's the one that the car came with. I'm pretty sure the team of engineers at subaru made a deliberate and well considered choice. So to answer your question as to why I would do that, its because I love this turbo, I love the response it has, its reliable and it works. I can have what feels like unlimited smiles with it. They're cheap and easy to obtain. Plus, its perfect for my desired end result, which is really is just to be "in the neighborhood" of 300. That being said I think it will be in excess of 300.
While I value people's experience, and that is indeed why I posted this, I dislike your condescending tone. You shouldn't assume that I'm doing what I'm doing all willy nilly without a second thought. I could be wrong, and maybe it wont be worth it, which I made pretty clear I understood in my original post. Also, I'm not going to run it at 22 psi, that would probably be dumb. But I am going to run it at 20!
Speaking of blowing a lot of hot air, your vague, completely untechnical armchair-engineering explantion of why it won't work, or even be a good idea Is not only merely your opinion, man, but it's totally meaningless because your expertise clearly fogged your vision when you read the words "hybrid td04". I probably know more about what you're attempting to explain than you do based on your level of butt-hurtyness.You don't know me, and I don't know you. The diffeence between us currently is that'm here to share a cool poject im working on with the fam, and you're just here to be a troll and try to fact shame that person who actually put the time and research into it... How about pragmatism? You can have your opinion WITHOUT being rude about it, while still being supportive and interested in what others are doing.
You should some research yourself, bub. Look up FTW turbos and see what they can do on engines with even smaller displacements than my own with a hybrid TD04, its fantastic. Or maybe stop a moment and consider supporting mods? Or better yet what are the differences between the stock TD04-L and the modded one I got back? same chassis, but it flows more.
As for your comment about the 125 mph speed: The car is not "out of air". plain and simple. It has just reached a point near to its maximum which means its still pushing a metric poop ton of air. Enough air in fact ( just enough! for the car to function flawlessly. imagine that, those computer thingies work after all!) The fact you think you need a dry sump to do that just tells me you've never done it. I've given my car the beans in this manner for 7 years without issue on stock engine stock turbo and stock oiling system. Additionally, rally racers do these things on the regular my dude. If they don't, then I'm in the wrong line of work.
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