$1600 for a rebuilt long block is a fair price.

If the knock you hear is piston slap I wouldn't worry about it. If it is rod knock I would go for the rebuilt for $1600. Another source of knock can be the the hydraulic tensioner for the tbelt. This can sound just like a bad rod knock.

I assume the $1600 price requires you to return yours for a core charge which some places tell you what your core is worth after a tear down and see what is usable. Which may add to that $1600 when they decide some parts are not usable for them.

 

I didn't know about the hydraulic tensioner failing. What are the symptoms? For the most part, the noise is prevalent at idle and very low engine speeds. After about 2k RPM and moderate throttle, the noise disappears.

I just looked under the car, and actually, the head gaskets aren't leaking. In fact, the heads are somewhat clean and the gaskets look like they might even be a laminated steel gasket - but that is strictly a guess. No leaks there. Where my leak is coming from, I don't know. There is a lot of grime there and it looks like it might even be Power steering fluid. I'm going to wipe/rinse the area off and keep monitoring.

Meanwhile, oil change is done. Going to monitor oil burning, sounds, etc.

And yes, there is a $400 core charge. I do not know how the core charge refund is handled. Rest assured, this is on my list of questions to ask the rebuilder. I've never paid someone to rebuild an engine for me, so this is new territory. Last one I did, I did the rebuild.

 

I didn't know about the hydraulic tensioner failing. What are the symptoms?

Sounds just like a rod knock. Here is a vid of a knock that was later diagnosed as a bad tensioner and solved by replacing it.

 

Sounds like the dealer was trying to mask the engine noise. Probably a bad rod bearing. My son has a '99 and his went about then too. We found a low mileage (15,000) motor from an '06 Impreza rollover for $900 and installed that. Is that and option for you? Are you going to do the swap yourself? A mechanic will charge you about 6-7 hours labor for an engine remove and replace. Depending on the mechanic, it could be $100/hour. Another expense, you have to consider on top of that $1600 long block.

 

Why not have a compression and leak down test performed on it. That'll tell you really quick whether or not dropping the motor is in your near future. But if they come back within specs, then you know to look elsewhere.

 

This IS rod knock!!! I know because it's my car. I rebuilt it with my crank re-ground to the next size. I also bought ACL Race bearings for the rods and crank.

car stuff :: MVI_0187.flv video by huck_this - Photobucket

Seems like the 99-01 rod and crank bearings were ****. I know lots of people with those years with a spun bearing on the rods. I had a friend with 0.005" of shlop on all 4 rod bearings. He re-built it before he got more damage.

Now, what did they put as parts in the 1600$ engine???? China made crap??? Who knows??? Is it worth it??? I would be a little weary about that. Personally I would pull the engine out and re-build it yourself!!! With stuff YOU know you bought.

 

Making this post because my next post will finally be allowed to have url's. Plenty more information on what I've been up to today...

 

I've been busy today, so pardon the length of this...

As of today, my engine isn't anywhere near as loud as the STi in that video above. However, I won't rule the tensioner out just yet. What did I do today? Let's see:

1. Changed oil to Mobile 1 5w30
2. Cleaned TB (wasn't very dirty, but I didn't clean the IAC, either)
3. Changed all spark plugs to Bosch Platinums
4. Changed fuel filter
5. Pressure washed under carriage to get a better idea of where oil is leaking from. I have a feeling some of my slop was historic while some of the new stuff was the dealer missing the oil filler neck when refilling. It was pretty obvious.

The oil change actually eliminated the knocking I had at start up. However, the car hasn't sat in the cold yet, so no 'cold' starts. We won't hold our breath on this one. The Seafoam definitely did something, because ever since I put that in the gas tank, I've been getting black carbon spitting out of the tail pipe. And yes, my idle is still lopey. Not as bad as running on 3 cylinders (I pulled each plug wire to verify this), but maybe 3.5 or so. Once you rev over 1000 RPM, the lopiness is essentially gone and it feels close to normal. I say 'close to normal', because that car is slow and old. That combination doesn't lend well to helping me understand what normal should be. But all in all, it isn't bucking/studdering/blowing smoke/drinking gas/etc. In fact, it felt pretty good when I took it out for a flogging.

The TB cleaning was only precautionary because it was free. Nothing much to talk about here.

I changed the plugs because they were cheap and I was lazy. I should have done a compression test, but oh well. I'll do that tomorrow. The plugs were interesting, because as you can see, the last plug I removed (cyl 4) indicates that cyl has been burning some oil. I've verified this on start up after the car sits for about 24 hours. Good bit of blue smoke out the tail pipe, which later goes away. Cyl 4 appears to be our problem child. I'm thinking maybe blowby at this point, since the heads actually look like they may have been serviced in the relatively recent history. I can't tell for sure, but the head gaskets may not be stock. Valve noise appears to be good (hoping they aren't too tight), and there are no leaks coming off anywhere on the heads.

Anyway, the plug shots:

I had the idea to change the fuel filter just to eliminate the possibility that the Seafoam dislodged some crap and I wasn't getting adequate fuel supply. A valiant attempt complete with wishful thinking, but alas, the problem persists. At least this will be fresh...

Based on looking around under the car, it appears I have an oil leak from the cam drive area. The cover seal is busted on the bottom, and I'm getting a good bit of drips. Oil is still dripping black, even after my oil change. I'm wondering if the hydraulic tensioner wasn't replaced and is now leaking/failing...

So basically, what I'm left with is a loping (at idle) and some oil consumption (dripping and a bit of burning). Car runs OK overall. The original knock has either been cured with a proper (read: lower) oil level, or has morphed into the next stage of destruction. Here is a knock I have off idle, but before the engine is really working in any meaningful way.



Has my original knock changed into this? Is my crank ready to bite the big one? Or is this some normal engine resonance that has always been there? Interesting questions I intend to figure out.

And yes, in regards to the rebuilt long block, you are all echoing great questions I have already started compiling; I'll be contacting them tomorrow. I'll be doing the work on the car, and while I won't rule out doing the rebuild myself, there is a good bit of allure in the convenience of a ready built long block with a warranty. The cost of parts alone isn't too far off from $1600. Then there is the whole 'time thing'...I'm sure you get my drift.

 

Just got off the phone with the engine rebuilder. He seems legit. He's been doing this for 30 years and started on aircooled VW's. When asked about the EJ25, he started rattling off problems I had before I told him (head gaskets, bottom end knock). In short:

• What brand parts does he use? OE replacement. Origin varies, he just makes sure he has quality.
• What brand head gasket? Five Star MLS.
• What 'data' does the customer get on the engine? None specifically, but most require a .020" overbore. Some cranks require turning, but many are actually new since losing a bearing usually means throwing the crank away.
• How are cores inspected/refunded? Core charges are refunded after teardown. Major issues are deducted from the core charge. So after you consider shipping, you need to be sure the cases, heads, and crank are in rebuildable form. This could go either way. It might be most cost effective to screw return shipping and part the engine out to those who need parts.
• Is there a time requirement on returning core? No.
• How does the warranty work? Two year, unlimited mileage. If there is an issue, ship engine back and they'll ship another one. Of course, you'll pay shipping for this...

I'm going to clean the IACV for good measure tonight and see how she goes. Warm her up and then do a compression check. I don't have leak down gauges, so I'll have to borrow a set and get that done later in the week. We'll see how the compression test goes tonight.

 

I would say that piston #4 is what is giving you that slapping sound. If you saw how my piston #4 looked like!!!:huh: It's slapping around in the cylinder like mad. So loose, the oil is blowing by!!! Take off the oil filler cap and start the car. It will pulse air like crazy!!!!

Why #4??? Because it's the last cylinder to get oil. It's the furthest towards the rear. Oil pressure drops and it doesn't get enough.

I ran Mobil 1 5w30 in the winter. No more for me. Ever since I did my rebuild, I run 10w30 dino oil. Why? Because just for the reason of the oil pressure drop. The oil acts as a cushion between the bearing surfaces and rotating surfaces. NO MORE THIN SYNTHETIC FOR ME.

Everyone I knew who ran Synthetic 5w30 grade had to replace the rod/crank bearings. This in a N/A engine.

Now why do the Turbo cars not suffer from this. They have a higher volume pump. the WRX and STI have these pumps. Pressure is not increased as this would spin your bearings, thus the higher volume of oil. Lots of guys are installing STI oil pumps on their N/A. Not much of a price difference. The N/A has a 10mm plunger and the WRX has 12. I believe the STI has 13 or 14. I don't recall. SO, if you rebuild your engine, I would upgrade your pump to an STI one. Seems like the higher mileage N/A's have a pump problem. This is what I can gather. Not enough to give you the low oil-pressure light, but enough to cause damage in the long run.

 

Makes sense on the #4 losing oil pressure first. Also, good to know about the o/p sizing. I'll def look into the WRX or STI pump.

As far as using thicker oil to 'increase oil pressure', I'd disagree on that. Higher viscosity oils require more energy to flow (due to friction), and as such, experience a higher pressure loss. In your situation, my guess is you either A) had too loose tolerances per the comment above or B) lost oil pressure due to something else. If you're going to use thicker oil, an upgraded pump might be vital. Personally, I'm going to stick with the OE oil spec. for reasons I won't use this thread to diverge into.

 

Hmm!!! 5w30 is recommended, but you can use 10W30. I did not mention anything about viscosity, just the difference between synthetic and dino oil. Besides synthetic is useless in an N/A. Synthetic I would use in a Turbo car though. It doesn't break down like Dino oil does.

It's all about fluid dynamics and hydraulics!!!:icon_wink:

Back on Topic.

Pull that engine out and take off the oil pan. Check the play in the connecting rods and the crank. If within tolerance, go to cylinder #4. Remove the piston. You'll be in for a surprise.

 

Cleaned the IACV tonight since I want to cover all my bases (although it is clear cyl #4 is 'special'. Holy crud batman! I'm not sure how this thing idled before, but damn that's a lot of crap. Unfortunately, it did nothing to smooth idle. Still have the lope - and of course, the knock and oil burning on start up are still present. Not like I figured this would cure those things.

Ran out of time tonight, so compression test will have to wait until tomorrow. At this point, with no CEL's, there isn't much else I can do. I'm still leaning toward a rebuild.

 

If you don't have even compression in the cylinders, you will get lope!!!:icon_wink:

 

Yeah. Normally I did a lopy idle, but not like this. Not in my otherwise smooth and quiet daily driver.

 

Ah, the compression test: the moment of truth. Drum roll please!

#1: 175 psi
#2: 180 psi
#3: 175 psi
#4: 128 psi

#4's plug was already half fouled after only 40 miles of driving since the last set of plugs.

Vacuum was 20 in. Hg and idle and around 23-24 in. Hg on engine overrun.

So yeah, no surprised that cylinder four is dead. I'm getting some good smoke on starts and the cold knock is getting louder. My theory, however immature, is that the rod took out the rings. Factory piston slap may have exacerbated the problem. Either way, I'm calling the engine rebuilder tomorrow since that appears to be the most cost effective way to go (not to mention least time consuming).

 

Like I said, remove the oil pan. Check the play on all 4 rods. If good, just remove the heads and replace with new pistons.

If you look under the intake manifold at the front of the engine, you will see A,B or C stamped in the respective locations of the cylinders, you must replace with the proper letter.

Check the cylinder walls. They might be scratched a little(superficial), but if you have a dial bore gage, check for cylindricity, circularity and conical wear. If you are within spec, you could just shove in new pistons and rings.

If badly scratched, you will have to open up to next sizes until everything is cleaned up.

 

Just ordered the rebuilt long block this afternoon; should talk about 2 weeks and then another week to ship. Thanksgiving weekend will be fun-packed!

If I'm going to dump money into new head gaskets, pistons, rings, etc., and quite possibly machine time, I'm just going to spend the extra money and do the engine from top to bottom. All I need to do now is put together a list of miscellaneous parts I need to order for the new engine (gaskets, idler pullies, tensioners, clutch, etc.).

 

Looks like I'm adding another part to the rebuild list. Car bucked pretty good and threw a CEL: P0325, knock sensor. I guess now's a good time to replace...

 

Yes, replace all sensors while you are at it. Once the intake manifold is on, it will be more difficult to get to them. Change the PCV valve also. I am sure it's all full of junk.

Can't wait to see some pics of this swap!!!:icon_wink::icon_cool:

 

Yeah, that is the plan. Not all sensors, but I'll do the knock and whatever else looks like it might cause trouble in the future. I'm putting together a list of other parts now to order...

 

If you get a chance, upload a photo of the other green Forester that likes to knock when cold. The PDF from the dealer where I bought mine is attached.

 

See here: http://www.subaruforester.org/vbull...f151/hello-forester-newb-needs-input-purchasing-decision-used-83033/#post918201

 

Figured I'd keep this thread updated on what's been going on.

Since I'm going to spend the time doing all of this, I'm going to do it right. Been ordering a bunch of stuff, so I want to keep this list going to show others who might reach this crossroads in the future what was done.

1. Rebuilt long block - includes new pistons, rings, bearings, oil pump, re-ground or new crank, rebuilt heads, freeze plugs, upgraded MLS head gaskets, and a complete gasket set. $2180 shipped. Will get $215 back if I return the core.
2. Exedy Clutch kit - includes disc, pressure plate, bearings, and tool. $141.36 shipped.
3. Group N Transmission mount to match my group N engine mounts I have laying around. $75.53 shipped.
4. Gates upper/lower radiator hoses. $19.61 shipped.
5. Timing Belt kit - includes Aisin water pump, Mitsuboshi belt, and all NTN bearings/idlers. $227 shipped.
6. Spark plugs and fuel filter. $35 locally.

Prices are adding up, but I'm moderately OK with this considering the car only cost me $2650 and this project should set me up for a few more years. I've done the shopping around for other cars, and the Forester just fits my needs perfectly. The costs to upgrade to an XT are too great given my other vehicles, and any other N/A Forester may very well run into these same issues.

I still need to pick up a good manual (suggestions?), thermostat, t-stat o-ring, and knock sensor. Of course, I'm also going to need coolant (will use OEM), oil, and miscellaneous hardware.

I have a line of a cheap used Horror Freight engine hoist. Not my first choice, but for the asking price, I can't argue.

Things are progressing nicely...

 

Replacement parts are starting to trickle in...and I'm PUMPED. Not because of the fact I like working on my cars, but because I bought the lowest price/free shipping parts and received:

-knock sensor MADE IN USA
-Purolator oil filters MADE IN USA
-Stant thermostat MADE IN USA
-Gates radiator hoses MADE IN USA
-Odyssey dry cell battery (for the STi) MADE IN USA

and still cool:
-Exedy clutch kit MADE IN JAPAN, and assembled in USA
-Felpro gaskets MADE IN JAPAN

I'm pleasantly surprised to find that you can still shop for the lowest price (or close to it) and buy domestically. I always like to keep my money here when possible. We'll see how the rest of parts shake out.

Oh, and I'm planning to pull the old engine tomorrow:Banane29:

 

Well, I finally got around to pulling the engine. Overall, working on these cars is a dream. With the exception of the exhaust, engine mounts, and a couple bolts on the bottom of the bellhousing, everything you need to work with is right on top in good reach. Much better than some of the other cars I've owned.

Here she is, the last time she'll be together in her broken state (I hope):

Cooling system removed (it really is as easy as it looks). Drain coolant, pull hoses, disconnect fans, undo top fasteners, pull up and out. Done.

Power steering pump and A/C compressor moved out of the way. All other wiring harnesses, fuel lines, etc. are disconnected.

Removing the exhaust proved to be challenging due to it's age (rust), but nothing my angle grinder couldn't handle. Now to buy more spring bolts... The only other hitch was separating the engine and transmission. Hands down, the worst time I've ever had pulling an engine. I tried heat, putty knives, shaking, wiggling, jarring, etc. Nothing worked...until I put some of the bolts back in bellhousing holes and tapped around the circumference. It took a while, but I eventually opened up a VERY tiny gap. From there, my painter's tool took over and pryed things apart easy. I definitely spent more time pondering how to separate the two than I needed to. Next time around (hopefully not on THIS car), I should make good time of this part.

Engine ready to come out:

Engine on the way out. NICE.

Ummm, looks like we're, ummm, missing some parts:

You'll notice I uncovered one of my oil leaks. I haven't pulled the throw out bearing or the clutch yet to see what seal was leaking. However, since I'm getting new seals on the engine AND I'm in here, it'd be foolish not to buy the $9 input shaft seal from the dealer. Leaving to go pick this up as soon as I make this post...

Now's a good time to pull the clutch assembly. I was tired and not thinking straight so I stupidly left it on and bolted the engine to my stand. Doh!

On the stand, ready to come back OFF because I need to remove the clutch assembly. Damn it again!

More to come. My plan is to get the clutch off today so I can inspect the flywheel, install the new input shaft seal and t/o bearing, clean the gunk out of the bellhousing, and install the new transmission mount. From there, I'll probably fill my day with riding the motorcycle since we don't many 60 degree sunny days in NEPA in mid-November. If any lurkers have any questions on any of the steps needed above, post or PM me. I didn't approach this like a how-to because I've seen many of those threads out there; this is more a chronicle of what I'm doing. Oh, and for those who are wondering how long this took...maybe 5-6 hours taking my time over 2 days. I'm working quite leisurely and feel I could probably do it in 2-3 hours if rushed. Faster if you account for the learning curve. Stay tuned...

 

Nice. Thanks for chronicling.

 

That's a pretty clean motor considering it's now a doorstop. Was the rear main or plastic plate thing leaking in the back? Mine is leaking pretty good.

 

Rear main seal is good; the plastic window is leaking pretty good (or at least, it looks like it's leaking to me). I've never seen a window on the back side of an engine like this. I'm assuming this was an after thought to gain breather capability that the original designers couldn't fit internally??? I'd love to know...

Some pretty good wear on the diaphragm spring:

My 'tool' for removing flywheel:

With the clutch disassembled, it turns out it was NOT the original clutch. According to the markings, the disc was an Exedy, which is what I'm putting back in there. Friction material wear looks OK, but I can't say for sure without knowing how long it was in there. It looks OK in some spots and less so in others; cleaning up the flywheel outta help out with even wear. Can't tell if the pressure plate was original or not, but based on the wear on the spring, I sure hope so. T/O bearing has no play, but the pilot bearing is gritty feeling. Based on the machine marks on the flywheel, I'm betting this is original and has not been resurfaced. I'm taking this to the machine shop tomorrow for clean up and to have the new bearing pressed in. Times like this I wish I at least had my own press...

While I was looking around in here, I noticed this:

The best theory on hand right now is that it is there to serve as an alternate leak path in the event of a blown front seal. It looks too nice to be a defect, and as best I can tell, the hole is blocked. Spraying brake cleaner in the hole shoots out the nose (input shaft). I'm going to assume this is normal until I confirm. By the way, that oily greasy mess is definitely NOT gear oil. Smells like engine oil and the gear oil level is good.

Nicely cleaned up, complete with new t/o bearing. I'm entirely sick of grease and don't want to clean any more. Ever.

Another casualty that needs replacing. It completely hardened and literally chipped out. Looks like it's time for another order to Suby for a fork boot:

While I was under there, I also put in the Group N transmission mount. I put one of these on my WRX and my STi has a Cusco mount on it, so I understand the benefit. But good God, I can't believe how soft the factory mount gets after 12 years of 150k miles and salt/grit/grease! It literally feels like one of those super soft artist's erasers. Talk about the opposite of that clutch fork boot. Good bye!