So if I understand your post you are comparing NEW tires to ones that at the end had 88k+ miles. How were those tires when they were new, when they had 20k on them, 40k on them 60k miles on them...?

 

No. I don't believe there was any change in the characteristics I've described for the Bridgestone Duelers during the lifetime of the tire (brand new, 20K, 40K, 60K, etc.). I don't think the ride and dry pavement steering characteristics of a tire typically change appreciably due to age and normal tread wear.

 

I'm a huge Michelin fan and just got Defender2's for my wife's '17 Forester. I have had 4+ sets of various MXV's over the years and these feel similar in their suppleness. I also have had 5 or 6 sets of LTX M/S tires and have them on both our minivan and my Nissan Murano. Unfortunately they don't make the LTX's in a Subaru Forester size application.

My gut feeling about the CC2 is that they will get noisy and scalloped in their old age. I may be wrong but nobody will know that for a few years. I like to rotate tires from side to side to even this out. Michelin's V-tread tires so far, starting from Michelin Hydroedge, were not too successful. (And all of their Premier shallow-tread tires are dumb also.)

 

My gut feeling about the CC2 is that they will get noisy and scalloped in their old age. I may be wrong but nobody will know that for a few years. I like to rotate tires from side to side to even this out. Michelin's V-tread tires so far, starting from Michelin Hydroedge, were not too successful. (And all of their Premier shallow-tread tires are dumb also.)

I've seen a few isolated reviews where people have claimed them getting significantly noisier with age. I've also seen reports with similar or greater mileage that are glowing. I don't believe any of them were Subaru Foresters, or the 225/55R18 size that I have.

I quite recently found the following video rating all season tires. These are apparently tires currently available for the UK market, not all of which are available in the US market. What I found interesting is that all the tires rated seem to be copying the CrossClimate's chevron tread (or V-tread) pattern to some degree. (I'm assuming the full chevron tread originated with Michelin's original CrossClimate tire.)

 

Chevron patterns have been used on snow tire designs like Michelin X-Ice for a while. I also recall the Hydroedge tire that was supposed to be revolutionary and seems to have faded away. This isn't the time for a referendum on chevrons; that will take a few more years. I have been driving on Michelin MXV's since 1993 and LTX M/S's since 2003 and have had wonderful service from both tire families through full tire lifespans.

I made the choice to go with Defender2's on our Forester just a couple months ago. The possibility of noise, less straight line stability, and lower gas mileage with the CC2's were on my mind. So far the Defender2's feel like my good old MXV's. (I have had MXV, MXV4, Energy MXV, and Primacy MXV generations.)

One of my primary remedies for scalloping is to do a full X rotation one time, then front to back. Can't do that with CC2's. I wish you many safe miles, and we'll talk again in a few years

 

One of my primary remedies for scalloping is to do a full X rotation one time, then front to back. Can't do that with CC2's. I wish you many safe miles, and we'll talk again in a few years

I don't remember ever detecting any tire scalloping on any vehicles I've owned. I've always attempted to follow the manufacturer's recommendation for rotation, which has been forward cross on everything I've owned since the early 1990s (all FWD except for the Forester, and all non-directional tires before the CrossClimates). However I've found that I have to be extremely explicit with both dealer and independent shops as well as marking the tires to assure it's accomplished correctly. Otherwise the shops (including dealers) will almost invariably perform a straight front back rotation regardless of what's in the owner and service manuals. I think Volkswagen dealers may have been the exception. They're the only dealer shops I've found that strictly adhere to the manufacturer's maintenance recommendations rather than making up their own. Anyway, as you said I'll be restricted to straight front back with the CC2s, so it will be interesting to see how they wear.

 

".... after 88499 miles on the original Bridgestone Dueler H/L 400s"
Dang...
The tires actually had tread after 80,000 miles?

 

The tires actually had tread after 80,000 miles?

Yes. I keep my tires rotated and properly inflated to get the maximum life from them. Based on the tread wear indicators there was slightly less than 2/32" remaining (they had recently become flush, starting to wear themselves) and the tread was reasonably even. The timing was good to replace them just as the winter season was starting here. I previously got almost 90,000 miles from 12" Goodyears on a Geo Metro. One of the tires slipping a belt kept me from getting the full 90 from them as they still weren't to the tread wear indicators.

 

How much did the OPs CCs cost? Total OTD price for the 4? I’ve thought about getting the CCs but have been very happy with my Defenders. They are wearing well and have good traction in snow and rain. I’m not sure that I need the more expensive CC2s. Very little snow and ice here in Tennessee.

 

How much did the OPs CCs cost? Total OTD price for the 4?

The individual tires were priced at $234 each.
Total OTD: $925 plus sales tax with a $110 discount. (The discount covered a little more than the installation and fees.)

I certainly wouldn't recommend buying them to replace tires in good condition with remaining life, especially if you're happy with them. I had been eyeing the CC2s for the past couple of years along with a few competitors awaiting when I actually needed new tires.

 

Wow! $925
I remember just a couple of years ago they were $700 OTD. MICHELIN is a bit out of line with these price increases. That $110 discount is baked in so people don’t feel bad about getting gouged. It’s marketing flim flam. Even the Defenders T+H has been increased in price.

The CC2s look like excellent tires. Really well made. I’ve looked at them closely. Un mounted. But $1k. Wow

 

Wow! $925
I remember just a couple of years ago they were $700 OTD. MICHELIN is a bit out of line with these price increases. That $110 discount is baked in so people don’t feel bad about getting gouged. It’s marketing flim flam. Even the Defenders T+H has been increased in price.

I think most everything has significantly increased in price the past few years and I'm only surprised that prices haven't increased significantly more as a result of the incredible increase in money supply since early 2020 (at least in the US). I don't believe that I was gouged in the least, even without the $110 discount. There are reasons that the CC2s are more expensive to manufacture than other tires. (See the video behind the spoiler tag below, which has been previously shared elsewhere in the forum.) I don't believe that $925 over nearly 7 years and almost 90,000 miles (what I got from the OEM tires that were replaced) is unreasonable. My Forester has depreciated roughly $20,000 in that time. Another $12 or $13 a year (over an alternative tire) is rather insignificant in my opinion.

As I stated in my original post, I could have chosen to save money by purchasing Vredestein Quatracs which would have been about $840 OTD. I did want a top quality all weather tire. The Quatracs have tested very comparably to the CC2s but I've seen no claims that they are designed to retain their qualities through their tread life. For that reason, and my previous experience with Michelins, I chose to pay more for the CC2s.

Spoiler: Video - Engineering Explained - CrossClimate Tires

 

In case you didn't notice, just about everything else got just a little bit more expensive as well..

 

Recently, I replaced the original Bridgestone tires with new Michelin Cross Climates. I like the tires but have yet to drive in rain or snow. One oddity is that my MPG has dropped by about 6MPG.

 

Mileage always goes down with new tires till they burnish in, but the tread pattern of the CC2 does not have the circumferential ribs that are used for high gas mileage tires and which also provide straight line stability. I chose Defender2's because I feared a loss of gas mileage and stability with the CC2's per my post above. CC2's also look like they would be really bad in handling applications like autocrossing but I have no evidence of that.

Note that Michelin says zero about gas mileage when they advertise the CC2's because they do not do well in that area. Omissions in advertising are sometimes more informational than the big-font claims.

Edit--this is also the time of year that winter gas formulations hit full force, so that may be part of the reason for a fuel mileage hit. The only way to really measure the fuel mileage effect of a change like tires is to measure at least a few actual tanks of gas over a length of time.

 

As a side note, I use CC2 on my 2013 Nissan Leaf and don't see much if any drop in miles/kwh. I bought the CC2 for use here in DFW, can't trust the weather and the fact they don't salt the roads etc.. during the winter.

 

Anecdotal reports are generally worthless. That being said, I replaced the OEM Falken tires on my '19 Touring very early as they displayed terrible handling characteristics and were wearing very fast. They were so bad, I felt that they were dangerous when the car was parked!
I replaced with Michelin CC2 and have been through 2 winters in New Hampshire. Neither winter was very snowy, but the tires did well, nevertheless. The only downside to the CC2s is that MPG has been reduced. I will take the MPG hit for the safety of a good tire.

 

Just before the first gas fill after the CC2s were installed.
Top number is since the last gas fill (39 miles old tires, 279 miles new tires). Center is lifetime. Right is the last 18.6 miles.

 

Three years ago I upgraded our 2015 Toyota Sienna Limited (FWD) to Michelin Premier A/S tires. I usually run true winter tires from November-April, but the Bridgestone WS-80's were pretty worn (down to 3-4 / 32"), so we kept the Premier's on (they begin at 8.5/32" and now down to around 6.5/32" and made a trip into the Adirondack Mts. of northern NY last winter. Well, they truely sucked in 2 inches of blowing snow. The van was all over the place at speeds over 45 mph.

Last February I ditched the Premier's in favor of Michelin CC2's. We didn't have sufficient remaining 'winter' to really evaluate them fully, but they seemed quite competent. Not quite a full winter tire, but heads above any typical 'All Season'.

My kid's 2018 RAV4 is the next one up for replacement tires (her OEM All-Season tires are toast, and this is probably the last year for her Blizzak WS-90's) so probably another set of CC2 to replace them both.

 

One quick additional observation. I was driving on a city street with new asphalt a couple of days ago (about 35 mph) and noticed the tires "singing," for lack of a better word. I ended up driving on it again the next day and heard the same. It's not very loud or objectionable, but it is noticeable above the normal noise floor and has what I'd call more of a "tonal" quality as opposed to normal road noise. It sounds a bit like I remember some other cars sounding when driving across an open steel grate bridge deck, but not as loud. I've been on other areas of fairly new asphalt and haven't heard it.

 

I have CC2 when I brought my car last March. It already run 12,000 miles before i brought a car. It been lots of snowing and raining off and on during March and April in Utah. It's run really great, hear minimal road noise, drop about 1 to 2 mpg during rain/snow season. Always check your air pressure to keep your miles per gallon better.

 

I've had my CC2s for 2 years and 50k miles. Fantastic in winter conditions but a consistent 5 mpg reduction compared to mpg with the original OEM tires.

 

...but a consistent 5 mpg reduction compared to mpg with the original OEM tires.

I'm skeptical that a change in tires alone would account for a 15 to 20% difference in fuel economy (assuming same size, proper inflation, alignment, etc.). I only have about 300 to 400 miles on mine so far, but the MPG numbers I'm seeing don't seem out of line with what I was seeing over the lifetime of the OEM tires. Of course my OEMs were the P225/55R18 97H Bridgestone Dueler H/L 400 M&S all seasons (which have been rather poorly rated from what I've found), rather than the P225/60R17 98H Yokohama Geolander all seasons that were on many Foresters of the same generation.

 

The general consensus among tire professionals that I personally know is that Michelins, in general, are very good tires. But - to a one - they also say Michelins are overpriced and overrated for what one gets.

 

Although Michelin is a French company, most of the Michelins on the US market are made in the USA. I am admittedly not struggling financially and feel that it is important to support workers and factories in my country. If I spend more money on tires and they save my life, or even my car, just once, they are worth every penny.

This does feel a bit like a hollow statement because our Foresters were made in Japan. And I am typing this on a Chinese laptop. But I do what I can to support my neighbors.

Our 3 daily drivers have US-made Michelins on them, and my old BMW has some BFG's which were made in Romania or something, but they were all I could find in a 14" wheel size.

 

The Cross Climate 2’s certainly performed well in this test. I have to say if I lived in Southern Ontario, or much of the US northeast, it would be a strong choice as a winter tire for me.

Also Interesting in this test is how well the Pilot Sport All Season tires performed. The X-ice is just a superb true winter tire.

 

I live in Michigan, 4 miles NORTH of southern Ontario and love Michelins but still consider the CC2's on probation. Michelin Hydroedges, despite their early hoopla, were a commercial failure.

I have been driving thru Michigan winters since 1970, have never died in a snowstorm, but have had to dig cars out dozens of times, and can say that any Subaru Forester with any tires that have tread on them would be way better than an Olds 442 with bald tires in the 1972 blizzard with 24 inches of snow.

 

Something I almost missed and just recently caught on to is that I changed from a P225/55R18 97H (P-metric) size on the OEM tires to a 225/55R18 98H (euro-metric) size on the CrossClimate2s. There is a slight difference in pressure-to-load schedule between the two size standards, even though they physically are the same size. From what I could find on my own, it appears that a 10-15 kPa or 2 psi increase over the specified pressures for the P-metric size on the door post placards is appropriate. I also noticed that the newer Foresters (MY 2019-2024) have the 225/55R18 98H (euro-metric) size from the factory, and recommend 240 kPa/35 psi front, and 230 kPa/33 psi rear, which is 20 kPa/3 psi greater than the recommendation for the P-metrics on mine, but they're about 150 lbs heavier. I've asked Michelin what they recommend considering the change from P-metric to Euro-metric, but haven't heard back yet. I am wondering if failure to account for this change may be partially attributing to the reports of decreased fuel mileage. I have increased the pressures on mine to account for this and upcoming cold weather. I did initially notice more tire noise with the increased pressure (during the one day when the weather was still warmer), but that seems to have subsided with the now colder temps.

I have about 700 miles on the CC2s so far and am still really enjoying them. I've had the first chance to drive them in wet conditions the past couple of days. I've not pushed them, but they seem rock solid. When driving one side through shallow puddle/standing water (twice) I didn't experience near as much noise and resistance as I'm used to. It was almost as if the puddles weren't there.

 

I've now got over 1500 miles on my CC2s. Over those miles I've averaged 26.0 MPG. Looking over roughly the same time period last year on the original Bridgestone Duelers, I averaged 26.1 MPG. So clearly, I'm not experiencing the huge MPG drop that some others have reported after switching to CrossClimate2s.

Per Michelin's website (with my emphasis):

Euro metric and P-metric tires in the same size (i.e. P215/65R16 and 215/65R16) are equivalent in their dimensions with just slight differences in their load capacity calculations and inflation pressure tables.

A Michelin representative I spoke with initially stated that no change of inflation pressure was necessary for the change from P-metric to euro metric tires, but then gave me recommended pressures of 33 psi front, 32 psi rear for my Forester 2.5i Touring with the 225/55R18 98H CrossClimate2s (vs. the 32 psi front, 30 psi rear on the vehicle placards for P225/55R18 97H size). My own calculation using the load capacity vs. inflation pressure tables came up with 230 kPa/33psi front, 220 kPa/32psi rear for the 225/55R18 98H size. (Based on average tire load capacity while maintaining Subaru's 10 kPa differential between front and rear tires, which Subaru appears to use on everything except the Ascent.)

 

@16SubuFore, if you ever had a car with constant read tire pressure monitors, you would see how impossible it is to keep pressures closer than 2-3 lbs from your target. As we approach winter, I always overinflate 3-4 lbs because after a cold night the pressures will be down.

The differential in pressures is to maintain the same rolling circumference and contact patch on the front and rear tires, with the front of the car being heavier. I bet the Ascent pressures anticipate more passengers on average, weighting the rear end down.

 

@YoGeorge Yes, the tire inflation recommendation is for cold pressure, not the minute-to-minute pressure while driving (as you would see on constant read monitor). I check inflation first thing in the morning after the car has been sitting at least overnight. If I can't do that, or expect colder temperatures before my next inflation check, I'll adjust the pressure accordingly (1PSI for 10ºF). I also slightly overinflate (5%) for anticipated pressure loss over a month's time. If I check it cold, and the ambient temperature is the same, I get very consistent readings. Anyway, my point was that the change from P-metric to Euro-metric tires does warrant a slight change in recommended cold pressure vs. what's shown on the door pillar placards, even though the physical size of the tire is the same, and the tire is otherwise interchangeable with the original.

I agree about the reasons for the pressure differential. I was just trying to make it clear that I used 10 kPa higher for the front than rear in order to be consistent with what Subaru has done. That's not exactly what I came up with if I calculated the inflation pressure needed for each individual Euro-metric tire to precisely match the load capacity of the original P-metric tires.at the their recommended pressures.

 

@16SubuFore I have never differentiated between P-metric and Euro-metric. There is so much extra capacity designed into stock tire sizes that the daily pressure differential due to temperatures is more of a concern to me. You've clearly given that a lot of thought too. I have also upsized tires on numerous vehicles usually just one centimeter in width or one aspect ratio, and have just used the stock pressures. I suspect that you and I both do a fine job keeping safe tire pressures.