[HerSubaru]

Reality check a moment . . .

99% of drivers couldn't care less what makes their cars go. Gasoline, diesel, electric, pixie dust, they simply want to get into it and go someplace with the lowest cost and least amount of fuss.

The people on this list and other vehicle related lists are passionate about their vehicles, but lets face it, we are a small minority. (Personally, I'd love to have an electric conversion for my airplane - no oil leaks, no mufflers, no noise, 20,000 hour TBO and change two bearings for $40 instead of 1,800 hours (if it makes it) and then a $15K to $20K overhaul plus valve problems in the interim.) I'm still keeping my dino-powered toys, but yes, I am going to have an electric car or two in the next few years.

As to the complaint "The wind doesn't always blow" or "sometimes it is cloudy", rest assured the wind is blowing someplace and the sun is out someplace, so those locations will be generating power, and that power can be delivered at 186,000 miles per second absolutely pollution free to anywhere on the grid.

As to the complaint "solar cell production is very polluting", probably, but once that solar cell is produced there is NO more pollution for the life of the cell (20 years or so?) and once produced, it makes power totally pollution free for as long as it lasts. Contrast to coal, which pollutes when it is mined, the train delivering it to the power station pollutes, pollutes when it is burned, and makes huge piles of ash which never degrade, and this goes on continuously during the entire lifetime operation of the coal fired power plant.

As to "the grid can't handle it", look around, there are a LOT of solar cells on roofs nowadays, and more, lots more coming. Some of them will have batteries (possibly recycled from electric car batteries which have reached the end of their automotive service life), so the capacity will be there, only the generation points and distribution techniques have changed, and will change more in the future.

West Virginia (for example) hates wind and solar because their economy is based on mining coal. The demand for coal is falling rapidly (no matter what politicians wish, because he who has the gold makes the rules, and them who have the gold have run the numbers and are switching away from coal), so WV's economy is shrinking and yes, there is pain . . . which means, like it or not, WV's residents are going to have to find different ways to make their livings, or move to somewhere else where they CAN make a living.

Oil is worse. Oil (like coal) is a non-renewable resource. We've been buying a LOT of it from some people who really don't like us very much (even though right now, we are a net oil exporter) and funding their economies which in reality have nothing else to offer. Once the oil is out of the ground, we transport it either in pipelines (which invariably leak) or in huge ships which have zero pollution controls unless they are in port, which have a 15 year service life (then they are scrapped, another dirty and dangerous process), and which tend to leak, sink, and run aground regularly, spilling oil everywhere. Once the oil is at the refinery, it is processed, which is another dirty process. then it goes into more pipelines or into tank trucks (which pollute while they are delivering it, and occasionally do crash and burn spectacularly) to the gas stations, where it goes into leaky underground tanks (Ever priced remediation for that? Start at six figures.) and then into cars, which are often indifferently maintained and make even more pollution.

A fossil fuel based economy is an economy based on filth and pollution. We really ought to try to stop before we kill ourselves off.

While all that sounds harsh, unfortunately that has always been the history of change, some things go away (whale oil, buggy whips, analog TV, rotary land line phones) and new things (and new opportunities) take their place. Transitions are always painful, and quite naturally, people tend to resist. Politicians know they can get votes by catering to the status quo and existing comfort zones, so they come out against solar, against wind, against electric cars, against the idea of global warming which necessitates many of these changes (and against a whole host of other things) because making their constituents feel good will get them more votes than telling the voters that the times they are a'changing and if you don't adapt, you will lose, big time.

The stone age didn't end because we ran out of rocks, we found something better.

Kevlar /on/

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

 

[im1]

The accelerator/regen braking pedal was the most intriguing aspect to the car.
In my hour of driving it, I did not touch the brake pedal once!

I often don’t touch the brake pedal on my Forester. Just set the adaptive cruise correctly.

 

[Beyond]

You've been drinking too much Elon Musk kool-aid.
The Y I drove ( also a long range) handles like a toboggan on ice and snow compared to my Forester.

I have both, and you're wrong. Resorting to insults doesn't make one correct, it shows childishness and lack of experience. Let me ask you this, does the Model Y you "drove" have the performance wheels? If so that may explain some of the difference. Even a little research will reveal that the larger wheel diameters are meant for dry pavement. The standard 19" wheels are preferable for range, ride and traction in ice and snow. 18" work even better with snow tires just as smaller rim wheels are better with the snow tires on my Forester. My Model Y is rock solid on ice and snow. Why do you think Teslas are so popular in Colorado and are by FAR the most popular car of any kind in Norway? Fun fact: Norway gets cold and has plenty of ice and snow.

 

[upup&astray]

Those are more common than you might think. My buddy’s 10 year old Mustang is like that too. But yeah, it feels like it’s just waiting to break.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My Infiniti G35 had same feature. When I got the side windows tinted, they did so with the windows completely up. When the tinter opened the door, much to his dismay, he saw the top half-inch of the window untinted. He had to do it over with each door open. 😁

 

[Beyond]

Yep. And older forester models like my 05 and many other older Subarus are frameless and the window does not move automatically to compensate. IMO it has nothing to do with air pressure but more so how the door, gaskets and hinges are designed. My doors drop slightly when opened and I think that’s to help seal it to the gasket when closing and to avoid interference.

Also, Tesla states that the reason they do this is to allow a larger seal area when the door is closed in order to reduce wind and exterior (such as tire) noise. The window drops slightly to avoid damaging the larger seal. They've also gone to double pane windows, also to address noise and add a bit more insulation (and safety). Since EVs don't have the engine and drivetrain noise created in ICE vehicles it's more important to reduce other noise sources as they become more noticeable when not drowned out by explosions (technically ignitions) in the engine compartment and drivetrain/transmission sounds.

 

[bigbird1]

I have both, and you're wrong. Resorting to insults doesn't make one correct, it shows childishness and lack of experience. Let me ask you this, does the Model Y you "drove" have the performance wheels? If so that may explain some of the difference. Even a little research will reveal that the larger wheel diameters are meant for dry pavement. The standard 19" wheels are preferable for range, ride and traction in ice and snow. 18" work even better with snow tires just as smaller rim wheels are better with the snow tires on my Forester. My Model Y is rock solid on ice and snow. Why do you think Teslas are so popular in Colorado and are by FAR the most popular car of any kind in Norway? Fun fact: Norway gets cold and has plenty of ice and snow.

Sorry, your wheel and tire size suggestions are a wash.
Her Y has the standard 19" wheels and tires.
My daughter's car, previous to the Y, was a '21 Volvo XC90, with, you guessed it, 20" wheels and performance tires.
That Volvo, without snow tires, was ridiculously competent on snow and ice, almost as good as my Forester.
The Y is nowhere near the Volvo's winter competence.
How come?
I have no idea, but to say a Tesla Y is as competent as a Subaru Forester in the winter is just nonsense.

Your signature states you've got a '14 Forester.
You should try the newest gen of Forester in ice and snow.
They've come a long way since then.

 

[bigbird1]

I drove the Tesla Y again today for another 90 minutes, urban driving only.
My initial comments are reinforced that the Y is an engineering marvel, but assembly and execution leave a lot to be desired in cold weather operation.
It rattles and bounces down our frost-heaved roads, and the HVAC sucks the juice maintaining the cabin heating.
I was so sure my next vehicle would be an EV, but as of now, not likely.

 

[bman400]

@bigbird1 Where you live given the winters there, I would NOT buy an EV of any kind. And sadly you drove what is considered in the EV community an EV with superior EV technology (Battery thermo management, great EV charging network, etc...). Which is why I have stated before, CA(Canada) and CA(California) are both being very unrealistic with banning ICE vehicles. They both should just let the market place dictate what's purchased.

The only way to avoid energy drain during the winter is to turn on heated steering wheel and heated seats and then turn off the HVAC, bundle up. That's what we do when driving our Leaf here in Dallas, -10C winters.

 

[bigbird1]

@bigbird1 Which is why I have stated before, CA(Canada) and CA(California) are both being very unrealistic with banning ICE vehicles. They both should just let the market place dictate what's purchased.

Don't put any weight in what you read about Canada banning ICE vehicles by such and such a date.
It's not law, and even if it were, the elected party running Canada on that date can change the law easily enough if it needs changing.
Nothing in Canada is carved in stone, including our constitution.

 

[inquirer]

[@bigbird1,

Contex of my reply Is as follows:
……………….
Been avid Forester owner since 2000.
Current Forester is 2015. Can hardly believe it's nearly at its seventh birthday.
In 2013 we got a Mitsubishi MIEV EV. Modest range..like max ~80 miles in full charge. And kind of basic. Nevertheless, we loved it and found we did about 60% of our annual driving in it.
Saved significant fuel costs and in the nine years we owned it (to 2021) didn't do single repair.
(Zero. Replaced rear tires.) Gal we sold it to still hasn't put one cent into it repairs or maintenance.)
Early 2021 we purchased a new 2021 Chevy Bolt EV. $30K before government incentive rebates…$22.5K net cost after rebates. We did consider a Tesla Model 3, but it was no contest.
And the longer we own the Bolt and compare notes with our Tesla owning friends the more Glad we are we didn’t go with Tesla.
Bolt's realistic range on full charge at -70 mph about 250 miles. Less in very cold weather.
(As with our Subarus and every ICE car and EV "your actual range will vary"
with how you drive and conditions.)
We now find we do about 85%+ of our driving in the EV, and love it.
……………

That said , here are my responses to points #1 through #10 above:

#1 Re the Bolt I can also say "..what an engineering marvel!…"
Includng very carefully considered details, such as, unlike Tesla and many new cars both ICE and EVs, knowing what controls and gauges to NOT bury in a touchscreen.
I never in my life expected I'd buy any GM product and be impressed by their eginnerung and customer support.

#2 GM paid up to $1000 for us run 240 volt 40 amp circuit professionally installed in our garage.
Didn't cost a cent.

#3 Not every EV driver loves the optional single-pedal driving mode, but many of us swear by it.
When I drive the Forester, I miss it. Takes me a minute to remember. "Oh, yeah .if I really want to slow down. I’m going to have to lift my foot off the accelerator and move it to the brake."

#4 complex electrical,, electricromechancal, and digital systems are so deep and broadly part and parcel of the Tesla, that expensive repairs are inevitable.
Yes. Per Consumers Reports both the Tesla and the Bolt (at least the earlier ones) are prone to such.)
But: the worry about that complexity of systems pretty much applies to almost every new car… including the newest Subarus.
And with Teslas, it’s definitely something to particularly note. Because they do not have a wide and deep reliable service network. Only 160 service centers in the whole USA. Tesla owners are often unhappy with service support:
Tesla reveals a major snag in the EV transition: Fixing them .
By contrast there are nearly 3000 Chevy service centers. (Many Tesla owners are taking their cars into Chevy for service. GM service centers now working on Teslas, says Mark Reuss .)
My own experience of the quality of support and responsiveness from my local Chevy dealer and GM corporate would give them a rating easily B+ and maybe A-.
EV's have been on the road in significant numbers for over a decade. The question of which cost more to maintain has by now been well documented. EV’s cost less. No lubrication system, no exhaust system no pollution control system, no transmission, approximately two dozen moving parts compared to approximately 1200 in an iCE.

Pay Less for Vehicle Maintenance With an EV

New research from Consumer Reports shows that you can pay less for vehicle maintenance with an EV. Pure electric vehicles, which have fewer moving parts, need less maintenance and generally cost less to repair than the average gas-powered vehicle.

www.consumerreports.org

#5 "….And of course, there are no gauges of any sort in front of the driver.…."
This car is designed for someone who is computer savvy and knowledgable in the way a vehicle operates…"
and #6… an. #7…
Well, yeah. Some truth to that….particularly so in th Tesla. Elon make the classic error that a newer more sexy way of doing something is necessarily better. He put everything into the giant center touch screen. And inexcusably IMO it's not even centered in front of the driver.
As for learning curve…not that steep… just different than in ICE.
(imagune trying to explain to a true newbe to ICE the many precisely coordinated multifunctiinal parts/skills needed to shift gears? And then understand that if the don't have at least a rudimentary understanding of lubricatiin system and cooling system thier car may be destroyed?)

#8 "….There are no blind side warnings in the outside mirrors, only graphical representations of vehicles around the Tesla…"
Yeah.. a bit odd. IMO most other new cars' blindspot warnings (at least those I have test driven our Bolt EV and the new Subarus) I have implemented Blindspot warning better.

#9 "…I did like the drivetrain.
No gear or engine noises of course, and the accelerator pedal is like a rheostat operating the twin motors.
Acceleration is effortless and exhilarating…."
Ditto for the Bolt.
I’m not a leadfoot driver. And I’ve gotten used to having all that torque there…. Particularly at the lower end..
That nearly got me in trouble in the Subaru, the other day:
I gave a robust push on the gas pedal from a slow turn start to make a left turn in front of oncoming traffic expecting I had plenty of guts to be well out of the intersection out-of-the-way of the incoming truck. But my mind was calibrated for the Bolt's impressive instant low end torque.
Not the Forester's. Cleared it OK, but not with the margin I thought I had and would have had in the Bolt. It was a bit scary lesson.

#19 "….So in conclusion, I was very happy to get back in my Forester today.
If you are at all entertaining the thought of buying a Tesla, a test drive with a Tesla savvy co-pilot is mandatory IMHO."

EV's are not for everyone. I would generalize further from that above statement..
If you're at all entertaining the thought of buying any EV a test drive is mandatory.
As is equally so careful thought about your pattern of use.
As for the Teslas in particular: if you’re seriously entertaining it, do yourself a favor and test drive Chevy Bolt EV and EUV too. They are half the price and in some ways superior cars.
if you need or want a four-wheel-drive, scratch the Bolts off your shortlist.
They are front Wheel drive only.

 

[Kevin]

Where is all this electricity going to come from?

Thin air!

MSN

 

[Beyond]

Just a point of statistical reality for those maintaining that EVs aren't any good in cold weather. Here's the sales statistics from Norway. Notice that the sales of petrol and diesel cars are now virtually nonexistent and battery EVs totally dominate the market. This reversal happened in a typical S-curve disruption period of around 12-13 years:

 

[bman400]

@Beyond,
I think you left out something called government incentives. I vaguely remember recently those incentives may get removed, and there is a concern now the trend is going to reverse.

 

[Beyond]

@Beyond,
I think you left out something called government incentives. I vaguely remember recently those incentives may get removed, and there is a concern now the trend is going to reverse.

Norway did kickstart EV adoption in order to promote public health and a cleaner environment. Many of those incentives ended in 2016 and 2017 and most of the rest by the end of last year. The incentives certainly helped a lot. What's driven EV sales more in Norway though is the proliferation of charging infrastructure and also because EVs are actually very good in the winter and on slippery roads. Electric motors can react much faster and more precisely to slippery conditions than an internal combustion engine. Here's a chart of BEV sales by brand just published for the first quarter of 2023:

For those who want to learn about BEVs in winter I'd suggest Bjorn Nyland's extensive videos on YouTube. He has a route up to the Arctic Circle and back on which he regularly tests various models and has rather extensive statistics on their performance. It's actually more of an even playing field there as decent charging is available for most brands, whereas in the US Tesla really has the only viable charging network at this time. That said, Tesla is in the process of opening up part of their Supercharger network to CCS1 vehicles via their new "Magic Dock" as they double their network over the next 2 years.

 

[bman400]

@Beyond Here is the article I mentioned earlier: Tesla in pole position in Norway's race to EV goal

They're discussing the idea of taxing EVs

 

[Beyond]

@bman400
Good article, thanks! So far Norway's BEV sales are strong in 2023. Time will tell us if that continues.

As far as BEVs in the US. I would make a few suggestions. If buying an EV for daily use around town or limited range there's a larger range of options. Life will be easier (easier than a petrol car) if you have home charging. Even a standard 120V plugin works for a lot of people but 240V is preferable. Many electric companies have programs to encourage EV use and will pay or help pay for 240V installation if needed. You'll also be able to take advantage of very low nighttime rates (6.6 cents per kwh in my area between 8pm and 8am). Why? Because a huge amount of electricity has to be siphoned off the grid and is dumped/wasted at night. For longer distance travel I think it's currently important to buy an EV that has decent range and also has the ability to use the Tesla Supercharger network. That said, some Superchargers will be opening up to CCS1 vehicles to a certain extent but that may take a while.

I'd also recommend a car that uses cylindrical batteries, not pouch cells. Prismatic cells are fine if the chemistry is lithium iron phosphate (which doesn't have to be controlled as precisely). Another thing I'd recommend is a car with the NACS (North American Charging Standard) connecter. Unfortunately only Tesla and Aptera use NACS at moment. Hopefully more companies will move to NACS as it's superior to CCS1 in almost every way and also allows complete access to the entire Supercharger network. A third consideration is a car that can receive frequent and reliable software updates/upgrades. It can't be appreciated until experienced.

I had been thinking about going EV for quite a while but put things on hold when Subaru announced the Solterra. Why? Because I really like my Forester and one of the reasons I switched to Subaru was due to their seeming commitment to the environment and to eco-sports like biking and paddling. So I signed up to preorder a Solterra on day 1. Then when more information was available it became evident that it was simply a minor rehash of the Toyota bZ4X (although it does have the excellent Subaru AWD). The Toyota is a compliance car with short range, is inefficient, and is based on a gas car design.

I mentioned Bjorn Nyland's YouTube channel, here's his usual 1000k challenge using the Toyota bZ4X (published yesterday):

 

[mikep0615]

I don't get it. Why would anyone want a driving experience like that. As far as I see it BEV's are toys for those that have money to burn or city get around vehicles. I need a car that can do at least 700 kms without any concerns in all weather conditions. One that can do FS Roads and light snarly backroads but costs under $50,000 CAD. I don't see that in the pipeline for some time if ever. And OMG the nannies what is that all about.

 

[bman400]

I bought our 2013 Nissan Leaf, because my wife only drives 1 mile/1.6km each way from house to office. Can you imagine what that trip does to an ICE vehicle!? We only charge at home, tried a few times at public chargers, but they leave a lot to be desired. If it was not for my wife's commute, we would not have purchased an EV. One would argue lower maintenance cost. Really? Not at the rate tires are being used up. So yes I don't need to do oil changes on the Leaf. But with a ICE vehicle that only sees 5000-7000 miles/year oil changes cost less than the cost of tires over 3-4 years. Almost a wash depending on the price of tires. Consider this, I bought the leaf in 2016, after it came of a 3 year lease, so I even paid way less as they previous owner sold it with the tax incentive included in the final price. I bought a 2013 vehicle for $9000 in 2016.

 

[TTiimm]

I saw a gorgeous Tesla blast from a red light today.

It was breathtaking to watch.

Just felt like saying that.

 

[bman400]

.... I need a car that can do at least 700 kms without any concerns in all weather....

You should have told me earlier, I just sold my diesel that will do 1000km and handle fs roads.