please ask how it can be avoided !!!! ????

 

Good question! I wonder if regular inspection of the ignition coils could have provided some warning.

Does anyone on here know if such a situation could have been avoided by checking for warning signs from the ignition coil?

 

Ah, well. I guess I could keep it in ice packs and drive it just to church on Sundays.

I'll have to bite the bullet and get it renewed, and maybe, hopefully, prayerfully, get another 190,000 out of it ... yeah, right.

 

i had this happen to mine with about 60k on the clock.
Ended up having plugs, leads, coil, front & rear CATs replaced.

Plugs and leads done by mechanic, coil done by mechanic but sourced by me from the US, front and rear CATs done by a muffler shop. Front CAT was a 2nd hand cat and rear CAT was an aftermarket. Just hope the 2nd hand CAT doesn't end up dying down the track.

The reason i got for the killed CAT was using regular 91 RON petrol. Now use 98

 

^ I've always used 95 which should be fine in yours as well.

(BTW - forgot to mention that I replaced my exhaust / cat because of damage inflicted from my offroading adventures over the years i.e. I had no cat failure as such just that everything was rattling around and leaking)

 

Hi all

It's been a while since I was on here whinging about my Forry :biggrin:

I've now been saddled with the need to replace a deteriorating ignition coil and front catalytic converter ( plus two 02 sensors and full set of spark plugs).

That'll kill my trip to Europe next year at $2900 :mob:

Anyway, the symptoms of this disaster were CEL light on and codes P0026 and P0420, plus sluggish climb up steep hills.

My Forry has recently turned over 190,000 km on the odometer. Pretty good run.

Hi Geckoz, sorry to hear about your woes.

I think it's a bit lame for the ignition module to clag out at that age/length of time. They really should be lasting the life of a vehicle by now.

It did get me wondering though what may have happened, also whether everything needed doing. I figure this way...

• 190000km for your plugs is a lot, even rare metal types, were they replaced previously?
• If the ignition module was failing that probably caused all other issues to appear. Bad ignition would give fouled plugs, possibly fouled sensors, perhaps damaged cat.
• Or maybe it was elderly plugs and/or leads causing the module to fail and cat/sensor issues.
• I wonder whether you needed the cat and sensors replaced. Did the mechanic actually test them or just block-replace? See here for a bit of info on P0420. I believe a clogged/dirty cat can sometimes be regenerated too.
• The P0026 appears to be a different issue related to oil pressure and the variable valve timing solenoid (like here). Has the mechanic fixed this issue or just cleared the code?

May you have (at least) another 190,000kms trouble-free... :smile:

 

Hi Pitrack_1,

Some good question posed by you. Alas too late since I had it all done today.
the explanation for replacing all the oxygen sensors and the spark plugs was to make sure that all would be in perfect condition after the cat was replaced.

Of course the P0420 was a different code but they said that it was related. If it comes back in short order, I'll query them about it. Might end up taking to to another mechanic if they start screwing me.

They have now also identified a problem with two head gaskets leaking and "spark plug tube seals leaking oil". That's another $3000 in repairs in the next 12 months or less. Am I being taken for a sucker here?

Doing some quick research just now, it sounds like the spark plug tubing oil leak might have been the root cause of the cat being destroyed? If that is correct, then I'll soon be doing another replacement of the cat.

What's the opinion of the forumites here?

I'm so over this damned car. I'm moving into the city in January and that's when the bloody thing will be relegated to light shopping duties once a week, while I switch to a kickbike instead. I just cannot afford this car anymore if it continues like this, or if mechanics start fooling around with me.

My next car will be a Toyota, if there is ever going to be another car....!!

 

Time for a second opinion...

Hi Pitrack_1,

Some good question posed by you. Alas too late since I had it all done today.
the explanation for replacing all the oxygen sensors and the spark plugs was to make sure that all would be in perfect condition after the cat was replaced.

That would be fair enough, except for below...

Of course the P0420 was a different code but they said that it was related. If it comes back in short order, I'll query them about it. Might end up taking to to another mechanic if they start screwing me.

I think a second opi ion is in order. At the very least try the NRMA/RACQ technical advice line if you are a member. See below...

They have now also identified a problem with two head gaskets leaking and "spark plug tube seals leaking oil". That's another $3000 in repairs in the next 12 months or less. Am I being taken for a sucker here?

Doing some quick research just now, it sounds like the spark plug tubing oil leak might have been the root cause of the cat being destroyed? If that is correct, then I'll soon be doing another replacement of the cat.

Aaaargh, this 'plug tube seals leaking oil' is quite possibly the root cause. If the oil leaks onto the leads, they will deteriorate and short out. This causes misfires. Misfires cause plug fouling, poor performance, poor economy, fouled sensors and failed cats. According to this site, it's a common failure (note the head gaskets listing too).

That's bad. Now worse.

If they pulled your plugs, they pulled your leads. Which means they should have seen the oil fouling and deterioration. And they should have told you about it and the seals earlier.

Same with the head gaskets, although that can perhaps be excused as not being seen until they were replacing bits.

Here's my suspicions. They may be worth a few well-directed questions. Or they may just be my paranoia!

• Why did they suddenly come up with this plug seal issue later? Why were they suddenly specific about ithe oil leak problem and the source (I.e. did they hide it, or do a bit of googling after the first visit)?
• When exactly did they discover the head gasket leak? It's a common issue, was it on the hoist or did Dr Google assist here too? I'm guilty as charged on that account on many things, but they are professionals in the field (one hopes).
• Did they really need to replace all the sensors and cat? It's in their short-term interest to fix (charge) as much as possible. Mind you, it can be in yours if it forestalls future issues (i.e. preventative maintenance).
• You paid ~$3k for the first fix, it looks like you may need another $3k in the near future. Both may be bearable. But if you were presented with a $6k bill up front, what would you have done? My guess is changed cars...who's got $3k out of you so far with a possible further $3k? That might be overly suspicious but the effect is the same- you'll be $6k out of pocket, suspicions or not.
• Do you think you'll get that $6k back for the work when you dispose of the vehicle? (Answer: no)
• Have you tried other places for quotes? That can sharpen prices pretty quickly...

I'm so over this damned car. I'm moving into the city in January and that's when the bloody thing will be relegated to light shopping duties once a week, while I switch to a kickbike instead. I just cannot afford this car anymore if it continues like this, or if mechanics start fooling around with me.

My next car will be a Toyota, if there is ever going to be another car....!!

If I had known your situation and the $6k earlier I would have recomands ded ditching the vehicle. $6k goes a long way towards a new $20k Corolla (if you can tolerate that) for the city and you would still have got some trade in on the Subaru, plus long warranty and fixed price dealer servicing.

It now may be a case of patch it up chem-i-weld or similar, clean up, do plug seals and get rid of it. I wish you luck!

 

I also wonder if you are being bent over a bit here. Pitrack makes some good points and maybe it's time to look elsewhere for your mechanical help, do you have that option? I know prices are high in Aus but HGs and the other associated gaskets at $3k? By any standards, that sounds excessive as does the cost and perhaps unnecessary replacement of all sensors involved withe coil and cat 'alleged' break down. I have a distrust of main dealers and large shops based on contiguous negative experiences and discovering overcharging and being ripped off too late. I have had a couple of excellent local independents over the last few years who do great work and do it properly. If there's an issue, particularly with the current one, he's on it straight away with the appropriate manner hoped for in these situations, but it's only happened once.

Was it you who was on here maybe 12-18 months ago being shafted by a garage over something else? If so, I can understand your frustration and if this is the MO of garages in your region, perhaps a used Toyota might be better. I had JDM Carina for a few years, bland little car but totally reliable and just kept going, I was not kind to it but would always recommend the marque.

 

Pitrack_1,

Thanks so much for your advises.

It sounds like there is more problems on the horizon ( just when I'm in the process of moving house which will take a while for various reasons, and the related daily 124 km return trip to and from home to work to new house).

I will phone the guys on Monday and query them on the leaking spark plug tubing. That sounds a lot like it will soon cost me another $3000!

These mechanics are not a dealer. They were recommended to me since they used to work for a Subaru dealer ( where I assume the learned to rip people off as well). I went to them because I feared that my regular mechanic had no idea about Subarus and didn't have the diagnostic tools to identify the problem. Now it seems he might still have done a job at least as bad if not better!

Damn it.

With a new mortgage hanging over my head and just having spent $3000 out of my $5000 savings.. plus the reliance on this car.. I really just want to cry.

I'm off in the car to make the 124 km trip today again to paint the house and hopefully make the main move by early December and before the leaking oil causes the same damage again

 

So, I've done some more research regarding the spark plug tubes leaking oil.

I understand that I should be looking at fixing this ASAP.

Is this a very expensive fix?

 

No, should not take them long to do it. I would think 90 mins tops. Ask them to quote first. I've done it in the past; pull the plugs, remove rocker covers, replace 8 tube seals, couple of gaskets, a bit of goo around the rocker seals and put it back together - as I recall.

 

Good to know. But according to the RACQ technical advisor, even if that particular item is not major work ( depending whether the engine needs to be lifted out) the main issue is the 192,000 km on the odo and the related end of life of the engine and most likely the transmission as well.

He said there is no point in putting in new head gaskets when the life of the engine is nearing the end. He recommended obtaining quotes for reconditioned engine and transmission. But, even so, unless I'm a mechanic and can keep on top of the increasing mechanical repairs that a high km car entails, it might be best to look at a car with less km on it.

I did ask for a quote from the mechanic for all of the above. Waiting for a response.

In the meantime, I'm considering a new car to replace this one. After test driving the Toyota Rav4 (2014 mode CV automatic), and then the Subaru 2014 Forester 2.5 iL, I cannot deny that while the Toyota is the smoothest ever drive, the Subaru Forester simply has the the most comfortable seats and best all-round vision. I had to go back to the Forester, as much as I would have preferred the lower servicing cost and matching price deal. Damn you, Forester!

 

I find that piece of info very hard to accept, 200,000km is end of life? Even if the RACQ did advise so that sounds like complete BS to me, there are loads of Subarus running that number in miles. Kevin has described the job fairly accurately and if you have a lift, then the engine does not need to come out to do this particular job. Pitrack makes a good point about them seeing/not noticing the fouled HT plug caps but this assumes honesty and transparency on the part of the garage. Why settle for a $250 bill when they can hit you up for $3k? I don't understand this whole "not able to deal with Subarus" thing some garages go on about, or any other marque for that matter. Sure many makers have odd quirks and dealing with hybrids may be challenging, different electronic as well as manual tooling and equipment may be needed too but there's the internet and phone when all else fails. Do these establishments not use them?

After years of being ripped off and finally having found honest mechanics I still feel the need to urge you to look around, maybe where the new house is located? The fellas who look after my needs scratched their chins for a few seconds when I approached them with the Forester, and then said sure, it's a car. They have no issue with doing my timing belt, coming up, as the garage owner went and got the factory info for doing it, and that won't be for another 3-6 months yet. It doesn't have to be a Subaru specialist, just an honest transparent mechanic, particularly one who knows when to say no.

 

Bassmaker,

Well, you probably have a point about the end of life for a 192,000 km engine and transmission.

I am awaiting a quote from the mechanics for the spark plug tube oil leak and the head gaskets. From their brief verbal utterances when I was there to pick up my car, they were talking again in the $3000 figure.

I will phone another mechanic who is a long way away but who has a good reputation regarding Subarus.

Lets see what he says about the repair bill and future viability of the car. Especially since I will be reducing my annual travelling distances from 48,000 to 15,000 as of January 2015. I'd really rather not get a new car if I can reasonably avoid it.

Thanks for the rational discussion here.

 

Bassmaker,

When you say that there are many Subarus out there who have done more than 192,000 km in miles, then the question is: What year of Subaru are we talking about? The earlier models? I had a 1987 Volvo that had almost 300,000 km on it and was still going strong with only minor repairs.

Question: how many on this board or just this thread, know of a 2008/9 model Forester that has travelled more than 192,000 km with no major engine or transmission problems?

 

Question: how many on this board or just this thread, know of a 2008/9 model Forester that has travelled more than 192,000 km with no major engine or transmission problems?

All I know is my 07 XT has now done 266,000km, it uses no oil and it feels like it will last double that distance. Only ever had the secondary air pump delete that all 06/07 Subaru turbos will need one day. Other than filters/oil the engine has only had it 2 regular cam belt and spark plug changes. It still runs its original water pump. And it runs a performance ECU reflash. And it really is no different from the 08/09 engines.

 

I've now spoken with two other mechanics who have extensive experience with Subies. Both were skeptical about RACQ advice.

Nevertheless, I have decided to trade it in for $7000, rather than spend another $2000 on it, and indulge myself in a new Forester. How can I say no to 5 year unlimited km warranty, one year's registration and free roadside assist for 12 months for the 2014 2.5i L.

So, it's bye bye to my old Forester, and hello to my new Forester! Yes, I admit. I'm addicted.

I've learned a lot from my first one. I'd like to learn less about the second one But life is a journey full of leaning stuff.

 

Well.....congrats on the new Foz!!!

 

Thanks, .... if I end up signing on the dotted line on Monday

 

Nice one. The high mileage Subarus are indeed much older cars, pre 2000 or thereabouts, in this country anyway. Volvo held the longest average lifespan for a car for along time, >18 years IIRC. Many of them were incredibly ancient and crusty and a look at the odometer often beggared belief and yet on they went, often consuming little oil. The first and second generation Toyota cars were the same, they carried on till the bodies rotted off them. The original Landcruiser was famous for it and many peculiar examples are still around with incredible mileages on the chassis, engine and transmission, but the bodies have often had to be patched or replaced. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why many Australians default to a Toyota, or perhaps more specifically a Landcruiser, if they have to go into the Outback.

Disregard the suggestion I made then in your post about oil burning concerns and the possible class action suite in the US. That warranty should cover all those worries.

 

Bassmaker
That's exactly my suspicion: it's much older cars that tend to be in the high mileage class.

I strongly believe that new cars are deliberately build to disintegrate at a much earlier time in order to keep the car industry in business.

My aim now is to no longer expect to keep a car much beyond the 100,000 km mark. My new Foz will have 5 year unlimited km. That means, goodbye at around the 4 year mark, just before the warranty expires.

 

My experiences of 13 new or near new cars in the last 42 years is completely the opposite. The latest models I've owned are lasting much longer with less maintenance than my early cars such as a '72 Corolla, a '75 Celica, a '77 Honda Civic, a '77 VW Golf, an '82 Laser and an '89 Magna. 300,000km is now easy to achieve with standard servicing of oils, filters spark plugs plus no more than a brake pad change, a set of struts and maybe a clutch and some CV joint covers. The V6 Camry I owned up till last year now has almost 400,000km on it (my brother has it) and it still uses no oil, has had one brake pad change, never had to touch the air con which still cools perfectly, just had its 3rd set of struts, one clutch, one steering pump, a starter solenoid and a couple of CV joint covers. My Forester feels like it will be even better after 266,000km.

 

Well, clearly mine needs a bit more than standard servicing:
+ first problem was the air flow sensor going dead - replaced twice since first one was bought online with no return possible.
+ Then disintegrating ignition coil resulting in destroying catalytic converter
+ Then, upon fixing the above, it was noticed that the spark plug tubes are leaking oil which will ultimately leak into the ignition coil and again damage the cat.
+ Two head gaskets leaking ( for some time but now getting worse) and that need to be fixed.

All of the above are not due to neglect in servicing. I was religiously getting this car serviced every three to four months due to the high km I was doing.

What was awaiting me next? As mentioned, spark plug tubes, two head gaskets, and then possibly transmission dying, plus struts....

Sounds to me like a fair bit of work to push this car into 200,000 km let alone 300,000 km.

Nope. I will just start from scratch since I'll be driving far fewer kms soon, it should take a lot longer before I start hitting major snags like the above.

But then again, who knows! The next car is a whole new engine with a whole new world of things that can go wrong.

A few more years of this and then I'll be getting a company car for private use and I can forget about the nightmare of car ownership.

 

AT 308000 kms I still have original cats and use mainly 91 or E10 petrol with the rare dose of 95 as a special treat. I do however use top end cleaner each 10000 kms. Not Subaru (expensive) special but an Australian made equivalent.
It would seem that the reason give to beamer_au re using 91 sounds like a lot of bullshite..