As an owner of a 2013 Nissan Leaf SL. I'll tell that we're still a long ways off before EVs will be close to practical. Canada and California's push to ban the sale of ICE is foolish. The charging infrastructure is not even close. I do 99% of my EV charging at home. Don't even attempt to do it in public. At least Tesla owners have a leg up with their exclusive and well built network. But for the rest of the EV's public charging is just not there:

1. ICE'd by trucks
2. EV owner has decided they're going to occupy the parking space for 8 hours because they can.
3. The charger is broken
4. There is no charger where you need one. There's nothing between Longbow Lake and Dryden.....
5. Owners that live in Rental Apartments
6. Owners that live with street parking

 

Canada and California's push to ban the sale of ICE is foolish.

While I'm not a fan of banning, keep in mind that we are talking 2035, a lot is going to change in 12 years. In 2014 there was about 1800 chargers in CA, today there are around 15500 chargers, so in just 9 years the number of chargers grew almost 10x, I'm certain that compared to 12 years ago that number is much much higher than 10x. In most of CA there are pretty much enough chargers right now for the number of EVs on the road, no reason for that to not keep up for the next 12 years, I'm sure it will only accelerate. I see now reason why it will be a problem for all new passenger vehicles to be EVs in 2035 in CA, there is a good chance we'll be near that goal way before that, voluntary, at our school's drop off time most cars are EVs already. Commercial vehicles, semi's, tow trucks, that's a long shot in my opinion as there aren't any today, hard to predict how that will play out.

 

Test drove a Tesla Model Y Performance for about 45 minutes. The acceleration was incredible and any open pockets on the road was clearly mine to take from exit/entry ramps to areas of congestion. My test vehicle was limited to 85 mph but that's probably a good thing. To sum up the experience the technology is awesome but I'm still not convinced current battery technology is ready to replace ICE just yet. On my test drive the Tesla started with 74% but dropped to 55% on return to the dealer.

 

As an example, any time any door is opened, the body computer lowers that door's window about a half inch.
The reason is that the windows are frameless, and on closing the door, air pressure would prevent the door from closing without a heavy push.
You can count on that intricate window opening/closing subsystem to give an owner grief at some time down the road.

Those are more common than you might think. My buddy’s 10 year old Mustang is like that too. But yeah, it feels like it’s just waiting to break.


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Those are more common than you might think. My buddy’s 10 year old Mustang is like that too. But yeah, it feels like it’s just waiting to break.


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Every BMW/Mini I’ve owned since at least 2005 has had that feature, and while some of these vehicles experienced problems, none of them had any window-related failures. That “feature” has been around for at least 2 decades…if not longer.

 

EVs are, like many vehicles, niche-oriented. The question that needs to be answered is… does it fit your needs?

If you do a lot of high-mile road trips, an EV isn’t the optimum choice for you. If you live in a rental/apartment complex without readily available chargers, an EV isn’t for you. If you live in extreme environments (both hot or cold), an EV may not be your best bet.

OTOH, if you own your own residence, do primarily local driving (under 200 miles a day), and have the ability to install your own level 2 EVSE (charger), an EV can be very suitable for you needs.

It’s really no different than looking at a 2-seater coupe .vs. a minivan. Got 2-4 kids? Think minivan. Single guy/gal? Maybe that coupe might be a functional and fun car to own.

I/my wife own a 19 Forester Touring, a Tacoma extended cab P/U, a Mini Convertible and a new Solterra Touring. Each vehicle has both positive strengths and negative aspects, depending on how each one is used. Hauling lumber in the Tacoma makes sense…not so much in the Mini.

And, yes, there’s definitely a learning curve going from ICE vehicles to EVs, but it’s not a long-term steep curve. A competent driver can accomplish learning in in just a few trips.

 

Loved your comment. A perfect well rounded logical and analytical one.

 

One additional consideration in the EV charger discussion. There’s a huge ($$$$$$) federal program going into effect right now to greatly expand the national charger network.

One can argue the pros .vs. cons of this program, but regardless of the position one takes in that matter it’s highly likely to have a substantial impact (read increase) on the increased availability of public charging stations over the next decade.

 

Lucrative business model to assist newbie EV owners that range matters

 

what happened to the invisible hand of market demand and free wills of the people? The government talking heads know better than the Joe Blows that puts food on the tables and save for kids' college? No, thanks,

 

Well, one could make the argument that if the government talking heads got their way, Joe Blow wouldn't have to save for college. As a German native who went to college for free because our society values education, I can attest to the fact that politicians aren't always a bad thing, provided they actually serve the people, and not their own agenda.

 

Like the cars with the window air conditioner hanging out the side of the car, there will be gas powered generators strapped to the roof, with a cord going into the charging port...

 

If I wanted an EV, I am able to get unlimited electricity at very cheap rates.
Manitoba has zero carbon-based generation of electricity.
We are 98% hydro turbine generation, and 2% wind turbine.
We export twice as much power as we consume, most of it to the northern US power grid, and some to our neighbouring provinces of Ontario and Saskatchewan.
We have no such things as brown-outs or off-peak residential rates.
I can't imagine ever having electrical rationing.

 

Until your rivers run dry.

 

I consider myself in the prime market segment for an EV, but as long as Musk heads up Tesla, the brand might as well not exist. As soon as he's gone, I'll start paying attention. Yes, brand image and ethics are extremely important to me.

 

@bigbird1 - You also have only 1.4M people in your entire province. Of our 50 states and 6 'other' areas, 43 of them have larger populations, and except for Alaska, they're all far smaller than Manitoba.

Any added hydro has pretty much been taken off the table by environmentalists here. Wind and solar get opposed by NIMBYs. (Not In My Back Yard)

 

Here in the UK a Tesla has become more of a status symbol than anything else....almost a "look at me I can afford a 70/80k EV".

I can't afford one, but then neither would I want to. The reality is for all their in line performance, they are not particularly well made, the charging infrastructure here in the UK just isnt keeping up with demand (you only have to go to one of our motorway service stations and they are either completely full/in use with people queuing, or broken) and I'm still not entirely sold on their green credentials (though thats very much an individual viewpoint - I think Hydrogen fuel cell has more legs if the infrastructure was grown out).

It makes me laugh though as you barely ever see a Tesla on the road going at any particular rate as if they do, they'll need to charge! I just pop by in my gas guzzler (yep I know a Foz isnt exactly doing the planet any favours but doing it whilst we still can) and smirk inside that I have no range anxiety (well....the thing is terrible on fuel but takes moments to replenish).

For me, in the UK at least, Id consider going Hybrid as to be able to do local A to B journeys on electric alone is useful, but with the cost of electricity here, id still rather just pay for petrol and be done with it 😆

 

Interesting thread as I just went and round and round about this subject.

I just bought a 22 FW back in October after watching the EV market closely for probably longer than I should have. I came really close on two occasions to buying a Model Y which at the time was the only legit choice of EV for my needs. But the bottom line is at the time I decided to make a new car purchase, the FW was about half the upfront cost of a model Y. Yes, the Teslas have come down recently, but they are still too expensive for me. I can afford it but I cannot justify it.

I commute less than 6 miles roundtrip to work right now and for the last 3 years have averaged about 8k per year on my daily driver which was a 2012 Outback. So there would be little savings for me on fuel costs. We are moving in about 5 years out to our lake property and at that time, I will have a 46 mile roundtrip commute. This will make an EV more of a return on my investment.

So for now, I bought a 22 FW and am fine for the next 4-5 years. By that time the legacy automakers will hopefully get their poop together and there will be more EVs out there to choose from. We already have the Ioniqs, the Solterras, the Ariyas, and more. Public EV charging infrastructure will expand but I will still do most of my charging overnight at home on a dedicated 220v charger that I can install myself as there is already a circuit/outlet in the garage for the previous owners large air compressor.

I have no range anxiety. I get 350ish on a tank of gas in my FW. There are EVs already out there that get damn near that already. This will only improve as technology advances. I am considerably more concerned with build quality and the - possibly overblown - many reports of EVs spontaneously combusting while charging. Parking my EV in my basement garage and plugging it in only to have it burn down EVERYTHING I have is very offputting. And yes, before the trolls swarm... I know the incidence has to be low percentagewise, but the very fact that it happens randomly and for no identifiable and preventable reason is not comforting. And then there are the issues with all the EV makers shoddy build quality and QC.

All that notwithstanding... my next car in 4-5 years WILL DEFINITELY be an EV. I am excited to see how the market evolves over that span of time.

 

The Aptera is provocative design.

Aptera Motors

Aptera is the world’s first Solar Electric Vehicle that requires no charging for most daily use - giving you the freedom to do more with less impact on the planet.

aptera.us

Not trying to stoke the coals or to convince anyone that it makes sense for them.

It's interesting from an engineering perspective, that's all, and technology doesn't advance by itself. The company is definitely pushing boundaries and challenging the status quo.

I like that (unlike Tesla) they promote the owner's "Right to repair."

 

Not yet noted in the EV good-bad discussion is when things "go bad".

In Phoenix the other day, a lady went over a curb and her Tesla burst into flames.
Fortunately, she and her daughter got out.

The fire department used 20,000 gallons of water to put out the fire.
On the way to the tow yard, the car burst into flames again.
The driver was able to dump the car on the road before it destroyed his flatbed.

Lithium batteries are great until they fail.. well except perhaps their creation requires mining a rare earth element that results in huge toxic pools that will last for centuries..

How is it that a "sustainable" vehicle relies on using the rarest elements on the planet that will disappear.
Not only for the batteries, but the motors require even rarer metals in their construction.

The other fallacy about the EV is that it is electrically powered, but it isn't.
The motors use electricity, but that power comes from whatever source that created it.
The green argument is that the power can come from renewables.
That's great while they work, but the problems are:
Renewables are not scalable.
- When demand increases you cannot turn up the sun or the wind to increase needed power

Renewables are subject to environmental conditions that can severely impact their ability to produce.
- A huge multi-gigawatt solar field will have its power output reduced to a trickle by a few clouds.

Renewable reliance requires storage mechanisms which are very expensive to procure and that have severe environmental consequences in their production, as well as impacts when they fail.

Also in the local news, the public utility APS reported that one of its environmentally friendly lithium battery storage units exploded and burned down for no particular reason.

Imagine your perfect EV world where all "evil" fossil fuels are eliminated and all power is created by renewable resources...
Scenario:
A heat wave results in an increase in demand (and lower output as solar panel output degrades as the temperature goes up) and a warm front brings in a low cloud deck that hangs over the area for several days.
Result:
Dead grid.

 

We love our Model Y though I would like more manual controls like the fan and wiper speed.
The supercharger network has been flawless between San Diego, Sacramento and Eugene but add an extra hour at least for the long hauls.
That being said, as I sit at home in the Sierra Nevada mountains with 3+ feet of snow and no power, I'm sure glad I have my lifted Forester Sport with a set of Blizzaks.

 

We love our Model Y though I would like more manual controls like the fan and wiper speed.

On a somewhat unrelated note, part of the reason I wanted the Forester Wilderness over the Outback Wilderness was the over-reliance on the touchscreen. I don’t mind the touchscreen for some functions, but for others, tactile buttons, switches, and knobs are way better in my opinion. Though I’m sure the 2024 Forester will move that way too. [emoji22]


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In 12 years there will likely be LOTS more EV's than there are now.
Regardless of how many chargers there are, where is all the electricity generation going to come from?
This isn't going to go well.

 

Regardless of how many chargers there are, where is all the electricity generation going to come from?

I already tried to point that out to him, but he’s not interested in what literally hundreds of news articles have pointed out. That’s California!


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I like the future of hydrogen.
Our hydro electric grid is ready to go to get those electrolysis plants up and running in likely a decade.
Hydrogen would be a much better alternative for cold climates at this point in time.
But who knows what battery techology will bring in 10-20 years.

 

I like the future of hydrogen.
Our hydro electric grid is ready to go to get those electrolysis plants up and running in likely a decade.
Hydrogen would be a much better alternative for cold climates at this point in time.
But who knows what battery techology will bring in 10-20 years.

Hydrogen is a potential option as a transfer mechanism, although the fact that it is the most explosive element in the known universe might be an issue... Look up the Hindenburg....

With a good source of natural energy, it could make sense, but would you want to live next door to a distributor that has a tank full of extremely volatile gas? I'm thinking the NIMBY effect might slow down the adoption because a released volume of hydrogen explodes.

Amazing battery advances have been "just around the corner" for a very, very long time.

 

It's amazing what evs charge for upgraded chargers. Having been involved in electrical work I can't imagine what could possibly be in the box to justify it.
I was looking at Zero bikes and a decent charger is a deal breaker.

 

Nema 14-50 outlet install in the house/garage will cost easily $1200+ permit costs maybe on top and that's assuming you have a 200+Amp panel/service!!!! Level 2 EVSE easily another $600+. I wonder how a family of 4 who's net income is less $80,000/year can even afford to buy these EV's that are being forced on them by California and still be able to out of pocket for the above cost of installing the outlet and the EVSE. Even with government subsidies the cost of EV's are still out of reach for the average person.

 

I wonder how a family of 4 who's net income is less $80,000/year can even afford to buy these EV's that are being forced on them by California and still be able to out of pocket for the above cost of installing the outlet and the EVSE. Even with government subsidies the cost of EV's are still out of reach for the average person.

In all likelihood, Gav and his lackeys already know there’s no way to make this all fly. It’s all empty promises to make himself look good for the progressives who elected him. I guarantee it will keep getting scaled back as time goes on.

The infrastructure simply isn’t there, and the cost can’t be dumped on the average folks who can’t even afford the EV itself.

There’s politics, and there’s reality. And they’re rarely on the same page.


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There's definitely an EV in my future...

Totally not kidding about this.

I ride bicycles 5000 miles/year and the day will come when I get both e-cargo and e-road bikes.

The Bullitt pictured above is likely to come sooner.

 

@bigbird1 My suggestion or implication of a 14-50 is that's the standard dryer outlet that everyone has already in their homes. Older homes? That's a different story. My L2 EVSE came with a Nema 14-50. Most EVSE's out there especially portable ones are Nema 14-50. If I am on a road trip, and carry my EVSE, camp grounds all have NEMA 14-50. Get the picture?

But I also understand where you're coming from regarding the slightly lower savings with the 6-50, less copper involved, and potentially lowers the overall cost depending on where this outlet is located vs the electrical panel. As to skipping the GFCI breaker? That's dependent on codes of where one lives.

The other point to consider is most homeowners are not going to be DIY this install....hence the cost I listed above, permits, etc.....it all adds up to the point where when combined with a new EV with rebates, the cost become prohibitive.

I know someone who lived in an apartment near me, he bought an EV knowing full well there was no L2 charger in the apartment complex, he thought that he could drive to nearby L2 chargers, ha hah hah. The vehicle ended up sitting and was never driven again after he brought it home. No place to charge, and the thought of sitting at a public place for several hours!!!!

I have another friend that owns an EV, and he like some owners on here live in a Public EV charging rich environment, even he said public charging is just not there. It's laughable. Too many dead chargers, too many EV owners think they can sit in the parking spot for 5-6 hours because they're too lazy to find another parking spot.

Where will the situation be in 10-12 years? No clue, adding more chargers is not the answer because the biggest issue is the length of time it takes to charge an EV.

Don't get me wrong, I am ditching my other vehicle and keeping just our 2013 Nissan Leaf SL(Me and the wife) and 2001 Subaru Forester(kid's daily driver). I still will keep my 2010 BMW R1200RT as my weekend joy ride vehicle. We also upgraded the 24kwh battery in our Leaf to a 40kwh battery, this makes it a very practical vehicle to drive in DFW, we can make it anywhere without needing to charge to get home.

I am just being very realistic about where it's all headed. We did look at replacing our 2013 Nissan Leaf, but it was crazy expensive, it was either another Leaf without battery cooling management, Chevy Bolt. After that everything else is > $50k. A $7500 tax credit means nothing. Not interested in anything Tesla due to their very poor build quality.

 

@bigbird1 My suggestion or implication of a 14-50 is that's the standard dryer outlet that everyone has already in their homes.

Not sure I understand the implication of a dryer (or range) outlet and an 6-50 EV charging receptacle.
Are you implying one should charge their Tesla from a dryer or range receptacle?

The 40A breaker in the dryer or range 14-50 circuit is certainly not optimal for the #6 copper, 32A, 6-50 specs for a level 2 Tesla charging circuit.

Tesla offers a kit with every conceivable adapter for charging their vehicles.

 

The problem with transportation is that far too many folks have the mindset that we live in an “either/or” world, where in reality it’s a “blended” world… whether we discussing ICE .vs. EV, trains .vs. planes, etc.

Only EV vehicles by 2035? That’s borderline nuts, but it doesn’t mean the idea of the EV isn’t valid. EVs should be used in environments that are conducive to their strengths, and avoided in those that aren’t.

Wyoming will never (in my lifetime) be EV “friendly” except in extremely limited situations, but in suburban environments they may fit nicely.

Pick your energy source… fossil fuel, battery, hydrogen… they each have their positives and negatives. It’s just not realistic to think only one will win.

Regarding CA, there are significant issues to be resolved, and it’s not just electricity, nor is it just CA.

Here’s another big problem: The entire southwest is running out of water while simultaneously increasing its population … that simply can’t continue without some radical changes. And that’s nothing new…it’s been a problem for over a century, as the original sharing pact created to allocate the resources of the Colorado River allotted more water than was flowing down the river even at that time. But that fact was of no significance to the politicians even way back then. It’s easy to pass requirements that others will have to live up to long after you’re out of office, and no political party holds the high ground in that area.

But there is a common thread that most can agree on… politicians passing laws that ignore the physical realities of what is possible rarely solve any problems at all, but they do succeed in creating more.

 

The problem with transportation is that far too many folks have the mindset that we live in an “either/or” world...
Pick your energy source… fossil fuel, battery, hydrogen… they each have their positives and negatives. It’s just not realistic to think only one will win.

Apparently the CA gov is a leading proponent of that mindset, with elimination of fuel powered cars via a mandate.

I will point out that of the three energy "sources" you listed, only one is actually a power source, and that is fossil fuel.

A battery and hydrogen are only transfer mechanisms that allow for an energy source to be stored for use.
Charging a battery or producing hydrogen requires power. These are not sources.
To equate these with an ICE powered vehicle, the power source would be the fuel tank, rather than the fuel that's in it.
Sounds kinda silly, doesn't it?

In any case, to have a meaningful discussion about the merits of any transportation alternatives, which is seldom heard from the ruling class (IMHO), the actual source of energy to be used would seem to be a rather important consideration before a wholesale conversion has any chance of success without major problems ensuing.

Beyond empty rhetoric, and mandates without a plan to enable them, I don't see that happening.

 

There a a few appliances that cannot be plugged into a GFCI circuit. I believe refrigerators being one. They will trip it by the nature of the compressor draw IIRC. Not very helpful if your food is spoiled.

GFCI outlets do have a habit of tripping. I just had an experience a week ago with one in our basement. It only had a cable modem box amplifier plugged into it. Our internet and cable went out one morning, and it took a while to figure that one out. never thought to check the GFCI, as the adapter covered the indicator. Even the cable guy was baffled for a bit.

At least he was decent and didn't charge us for the service call, even though it was our equipment that decided to have a random issue. So I can agree that certain things should never be plugged into a GFCI.

 

There a a few appliances that cannot be plugged into a GFCI circuit.

And that includes every hard wired EV charging station, unless an owner wants nothing but false tripping of the breaker.
Regarding the straight plugging into a receptacle (6-50 or 14-50) to charge , local code would dictate whether a GFCI breaker is required or not.

 

My experience is that just about any device that has an initial surge of power on startup (think electric motors with starting capacitors, as an example) can easily trip a GFCI breaker.