[bman400]

What about Torque APP? I am sure it displays voltage, can it log the data?

 

[Gebe]

AGM. This Interstate article explains the benefits better than I could:

What Is an AGM Battery? AGM vs Standard Batteries | Interstate Batteries

Lots of new cars sport AGM batteries. But what are they? Here’s the big deal.

www.interstatebatteries.com

Because AGM batteries don't "gas", you shouldn't experience acid buildup on your battery connections.

BTW, if you have a Costco in your area they sell a group 35 Interstate AGM for $179.

Thanks for that Bill!

 

[boureesub]

Thanks @Fibber2 for your thoughtful response. It’s been a few years since I went down this path, mostly to satisfy my own engineering curiosity, so it's good to hear your thoughts. It’s a LOT of work. We’ve likely read some of the same articles. The loss of ready access to journal publications is a retirement negative for sure. My former employer used to provide tech library access to retirees, but 911 and shrinking budgets changed all that.


I hope I’m not coming across as challenging your findings. I can fall into “engineering review board” mode, so if that’s coming through, it’s unintentional.

You piqued my curiosity with this comment, “Read up on what happens if you apply the wrong battery characteristics. There are some authors with interesting papers, such as Eckhard Karden from Ford Research Germany.” Thanks for the reference. I would love to do that and will try; free time is tight at the moment. Do you recall the article title or which Journal? I never found anything discussing the impact of charging an AGM at slightly lower than normal voltages, which would be the case in the Forester. The same goes for charging at lower amperage during bulk charge (a concern of mine in a different application having nothing to do with the Forester).

If anyone is interested in actually monitoring system charge performance, something like a Victron BMV700 or 712 is the way to go. Would need to verify it can handle the starter current load. These are mostly used to monitor house battery state of charge in boats and RVs. I like their product line. They make very configurable car chargers.

BMV-700 | Victron Energy

Calculate your battery status and number of Amp hours used with very high precision with the BMV-700 and BMV-702. Find a dealer nearby.

www.victronenergy.com

If you just want to record voltage over time, my Bluetooth iPhone app, Car Scanner ELM, does fine. The sample rate is maybe 4 hz. Had a bit of the flu lately, but just before that I captured a stop start cycle so you can see. I’ll post a plot when feellng better.

Edit: there is also an android version. I assume the android version has the same capability as the iPhone version for downloading CSV files. I process the files in Excel.

Car Scanner ELM OBD2 – The best car OBD2 diagnostic solution for iOS and Android in your pocket!

www.carscanner.info

 

[bigbird1]

I just read the details of SOA's lawsuit settlement in the US for the OEM battery failure claims.
The interesting part of the settlement that could apply to this thread is that Subaru issued a software update that improves the on-board computer’s “charging logic.”
This applied to all 2015-2020 Foresters, as well as other Subaru models.
That makes me think that perhaps owners of '21 and newer Foresters have less concern over early battery failure due to the use of more robust EFB batteries and the updated charging logic.

Here's the link to the source of my info: Subaru Battery Drain Lawsuit - How The Final Settlement Affects Owners Now | Torque News

 

[bman400]

that Subaru issued a software update that improves the on-board computer’s “charging logic.”
This applied to all 2015-2020 Foresters, as well as other Subaru models.
That makes me think that perhaps owners of '21 and newer Foresters have less concern over early battery failure due to the use of more robust EFB batteries and the updated charging logic.

Here's the link to the source of my info: Subaru Battery Drain Lawsuit - How The Final Settlement Affects Owners Now | Torque News

Sounds eerily similar to the messed up 12v charging algorithm with my 2013 Nissan Leaf!

 

[FelineFreddie]

I just read the details of SOA's lawsuit settlement in the US for the OEM battery failure claims.
The interesting part of the settlement that could apply to this thread is that Subaru issued a software update that improves the on-board computer’s “charging logic.”
This applied to all 2015-2020 Foresters, as well as other Subaru models.
That makes me think that perhaps owners of '21 and newer Foresters have less concern over early battery failure due to the use of more robust EFB batteries and the updated charging logic.

Here's the link to the source of my info: Subaru Battery Drain Lawsuit - How The Final Settlement Affects Owners Now | Torque News

After reading some the settlement “fixes”, I’m still a bit confused, mainly from the lack of specifics..

Not all vehicles covered under the settlement came equipped with the same battery construction (FBs and EFBs), and not all (in fact, less than half) are equipped with S/S.

So, without having more specifics, I think it’s wishful thinking to hope there’s been some sort of meaningful “correction” in charging algorithms, especially since I’m inclined to believe an EFB would require different charging requirements than standard flooded batteries. Not to mention the added battery loads created by the use of S/S.

But, I could be wrong… Who knows???

 

[bman400]

@FelineFreddie Based on your post about FB and EFB, I am inclined to think the charging change was, "charge more often". There does not seem to be much documentation yet about charging profile of EFB bring different from FB, whereas AGMs have a documented charging profile difference, needing higher voltage vs FB.

 

[bigbird1]

@FelineFreddie Based on your post about FB and EFB, I am inclined to think the charging change was, "charge more often". There does not seem to be much documentation yet about charging profile of EFB bring different from FB, whereas AGMs have a documented charging profile difference, needing higher voltage vs FB.

It would be very easy to run an AGM in a Forester by installing an onboard maintainer if one didn't want to worry about the alternator being a few tenths of a volt shy of the optimum charging voltage for an AGM.
Even the cheapest, smallest Noco maintainer has self-sensing and auto adjusting charge rates for the different types of batteries.
They have temperature sensing compensation for cold weather maintaining as well.

 

[bman400]

@bigbird1 True but not everyone's living condition accommodates 120v nearby!

 

[bigbird1]

@bigbird1 True but not everyone's living condition accommodates 120v nearby!

Of course, but mine does, and that's all that matters to me.

 

[FelineFreddie]

It would be very easy to run an AGM in a Forester by installing an onboard maintainer if one didn't want to worry about the alternator being a few tenths of a volt shy of the optimum charging voltage for an AGM.
Even the cheapest, smallest Noco maintainer has self-sensing and auto adjusting charge rates for the different types of batteries.
They have temperature sensing compensation for cold weather maintaining as well.

The long-term results/success/failure (personal experience, to be more specific) of using AGMs in the Subaru vehicles I own, which I believe are all included in the settlement classes of vehicles …my wife’s 15 Outback, my 19 Forester and my B-I-L’s 19 Forester is yet to be determined, as both Foresters have had an AGM for a year now, and my wife’s Outback going on 5+ years now. Both Foresters have the S/S Eliminator installed and engaged, and the Outback doesn’t have S/S. None of the OEM flooded/EFB batteries lasted longer than 36 months before showing signs of imminent failure or outright failure.

But, as of now, all 3 are showing no signs of battery failure or negative impact in any way. All 3 are located in the Southeast, and it does get quite hot and humid during the summer, but very few “gosh-awfully” cold days. Maybe that is a factor. Maybe the lack of using S/S is a factor (I’d bet on that one). Incidentally, all 3 vehicles are enclosed garage kept, fwiw…

So, so far, AGMs are working swimmingly for us.

As the expression goes…Your mileage may vary…

 

[FelineFreddie]

I would add that my 2009 Toyota Tacoma P/U has the same AGM battery I installed when the OEM flooded battery failed in 2013.

The conclusion I have determined, based on my experiences, is that an AGM will easily outlast a standard flooded battery or EFB in vehicles not necessarily designed with AGM charging profiles, as long as the batteries aren’t exposed to unusual heavy loading and frequent deep discharging. S/S is probably a game changer in many respects, but at my age (68), I’m not likely to have a lot more personal (anecdotal) experiences trying AGM‘s in new vehicles equipped with OEM flooded/EFBs.

I did recently purchase a Solterra Touring, and it came equipped with an EFB 12V battery, so it’s possible I may still have one more experience awaiting me. At this time, though, if it becomes necessary, I plan on replacing the OEM EFB with another EFB…but that is subject to change, of course.

 

[ForesterBill]

This applied to all 2015-2020 Foresters, as well as other Subaru models.
That makes me think that perhaps owners of '21 and newer Foresters have less concern over early battery failure due to the use of more robust EFB batteries and the updated charging logic.

...or perhaps it has to do with the model years that existed when the lawsuits were filed?

 

[Fibber2]

After reading some the settlement “fixes”, I’m still a bit confused, mainly from the lack of specifics..

Not all vehicles covered under the settlement came equipped with the same battery construction (FBs and EFBs), and not all (in fact, less than half) are equipped with S/S.

So, without having more specifics, I think it’s wishful thinking to hope there’s been some sort of meaningful “correction” in charging algorithms, especially since I’m inclined to believe an EFB would require different charging requirements than standard flooded batteries. Not to mention the added battery loads created by the use of S/S.

But, I could be wrong… Who knows???

Our 2018 Forester's charging cycle seems to be on the verge of adequate in my view. Rarely did I attain much over 12.6 volts or so after a run, and I believe that the sub 'full' state did exact a toll on the battery over time. I often put my NOCO smart charger on it to keep it alive when it would drift downwards from lack of use. When my kid brought the car home from school this past October with it below 12.6 v and it was cranking very slowly, it was time for the OE Panasonic standard flooded battery to go. I put in a Walmart Everstart Max (another standard construction FB). Inexpensive and dependable.

As I've elaborated here before, the EFB in our 2019 Forester is often down around 12.2 volts. Remarkably it will start the vehicle (cranks veeerrryyyy slowly), but I check it often and also apply the NOCO on a regular basis to keep it going. So when I talked to my dealer about a replacement battery a few months back, they rejected me based on never actually having a no-start situation. Being proactive and keeping it alive worked against me.... I joined this conversation as I too was about to go for a Costco Interstate AGM battery until I started researching the issue and realized that was the wrong way to go.

So we have an 2018 SJ Forester (no Stop Start system and a standard FB) and a 2019 SK Forester (A-S/S which I use and an EFB). Both, in my view have charging system software that are leaving the battery undercharged. But they are no doubt different as they feed different battery types and have very different load cycling.

The SETTLEMENT (Motion for Final Approval, Page 11) includes a reflash if you feel you need it. Now realize that the exact software package is most certainly different SJ to SK, and may even vary by year within the vehicle series. We know that 2021+ is different, as is 2015/2016 from the text. But at least there is some recognition that the original scripts were likely biased towards fuel economy at the expense of a healthy battery, and we can get that corrected.

 

[bigbird1]

Indeed the 2021+ charging algorithm is different.

I have observed many times that after driving my '23 for 10-15 min in -20 F temps, HVAC on 3 fan bars, heated seats on, and headlights on due to darkness (not DRL's), my battery voltage has not dropped significantly.
I haven't measured my battery voltage, as the battery needs to rest for at least a half hour to stabilize its voltage.
I'm just going by what the Noco indicator light is telling me.

My hard wired 2A Noco maintainer shows a full charge after about 30 minutes of charging.
But I don't plug it in for at least 5 hours after parking in my garage, to let the Evap system do its pressure check.
So that evap compressor motor is likely what's necessitating the half hour of charging, not a deficiently programmed alternator.

 

[Fibber2]

By contrast, my battery is sitting at 12.3 volts this morning, so I will likely have to run my 3.5 amp NOCO GB3500 for nearly a full day before the green light goes solid (not flashing).

 

[Fibber2]

I hope I’m not coming across as challenging your findings. I can fall into “engineering review board” mode, so if that’s coming through, it’s unintentional.

No problem there! I have a long list of patent applications and juried papers, so facing the gauntlet is just a part of the process.

My mention of 'wrong battery charging profile' was from a BMW source, not Dr. Karden directly. I'm a little reluctant to tell you a lot more for the same reason I never dropped my notes onto the engineering roundtable for my team to review. I would state the challenge that I'd received from upper management and give my overall assessment of where to start looking, but not my literature search. Reason? If my team went directly down the same path I took, they would likely come to the same conclusion I did. And while that might make me feel good, it might not be the right answer! It's better for them to do independent research and come back with their own assessment. If we agree, great. If we don't agree, well great too. Then we hash it out, and set our own direction for experimentation and process development.

 

[boureesub]

OK. Will figure it out later. Whenever I’ve posted something with information that’s not easily found, I try to include the source, but that’s just me.

 

[LeftOverParts]

My 2019 Forester Touring has the exact same label. And the labels with the assumed Japanese characters. SOA might put that label on there to alert us to the fact that SOA has those batteries to sell us, even if they look like imports.

 

[Fibber2]

Dr. Karden wrote back!!! In fact he wrote me a short book..... Unfortunately, I only gave him a few short lines and asked if we could talk and I'd explain the situation. He just assumed you guys wanted to ignore Subaru's recommendations, cheap out and substitute a basic FB for an EFB or AGM. So he gave me a detailed response on why that would be a bad idea.

I sent him the full story, so let's see what he comes back with.