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post #46 of 396 (permalink) Old 06-22-2015, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Flattery will get you everywhere (with me, anyway).
Thanks


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post #47 of 396 (permalink) Old 06-22-2015, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSi+WRX View Post
That CrossClimate would be interesting in a comparo with the Nokian All Weather tires, for-sure!
Not finding any head to head reviews, there are some interesting articles, however:

Nokian Weatherproof: the new benchmark for all season tyres? - New tyres: news about products from manufacturer - rezulteo
Michelin CrossClimate: now available! - New tyres: news about products from manufacturer - rezulteo
http://www.rezulteo-tyres.ie/new-tyr...d-winter-27333

http://www.motoringassist.com/motori...es-white-hell/
http://www.motoringassist.com/motori...-type-arrives/

Nokian's starting point is a winter tire that is billing itself as winter tire you can drive in the summer
Nokian is using "Tailored centre area. Excellent winter grip." (This approach is similar to TrippleTread.) with " A special Stiffness Zone was designed in the shoulder area of the Nokian Weatherproof SUV in order to stiffen the tyre shoulder."

Michelin's starting point is a summer tire that is billing itself as summer tire you can drive in the winter.

Nokian Weatherproof European label
Wet braking - A
Fuel efficiency - C
External noise - 69 dB
Snow - 3PMSF

Michelin CrossClimate European label
Wet braking - A
Fuel efficiency - C
External noise - 68 dB
Snow - 3PMSF


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Last edited by Alex.F; 06-22-2015 at 09:45 PM.
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post #48 of 396 (permalink) Old 06-22-2015, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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New All Season Tyres
Michelin CrossClimate
Nokian WeatherProof
Pirelli Cinturato AllSeason
Firestone MultiSeason
Hankook Kinergy 4S
Kumho Solus 4

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post #49 of 396 (permalink) Old 06-23-2015, 05:58 AM
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Awesome - now things just got more confusing and complicated! It'll be interesting to see what this year's testing brings, with things now so intermixed.

I wonder, may we truly see a tire that's able to, more or less, do it all?

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post #50 of 396 (permalink) Old 06-23-2015, 06:42 AM Thread Starter
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The "magic triangle" has been broken; time for new & exciting things.
I just hope we can find "apples to apples" in addition to press releases.

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Last edited by Alex.F; 06-23-2015 at 08:06 AM.
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post #51 of 396 (permalink) Old 06-23-2015, 06:50 AM
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Yes, indeed, this is timely stuff for my search for a tire that does it all, as my nearly new stock tires will get by for dry roads. Can afford to wait until late Fall to decide, so very pleased to see the direction the market is headed.
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post #52 of 396 (permalink) Old 06-23-2015, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex.F View Post
New All Season Tyres
Michelin CrossClimate
Nokian WeatherProof
Pirelli Cinturato AllSeason
Firestone MultiSeason
Hankook Kinergy 4S
Kumho Solus 4
The Sumitomo HTR A/S P02 just popped up on TireRack in 225/55/18 and caught my eye with its tread pattern and very low price...good news is that all 6 people that reviewed it there liked it, bad news is they have less than 1500 miles total on the tire. Will definitely keep an eye on this one.

The Michelin Premier A/S is doing great in the TireRack surveys, don't think I've seen numbers this high across the board for any tire that's been available in the size I wanted. Too early to call it a supertire as there are less than 600,000 reported miles.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....omCompare1=yes

Last edited by Virtus_Probi; 06-23-2015 at 01:21 PM.
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post #53 of 396 (permalink) Old 06-28-2015, 12:27 AM Thread Starter
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Good collection of tire\tyre tests

Summer tyres tests | Laneks
Winter tyres tests | Laneks
News ? Tyres ? Other news | Laneks

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post #54 of 396 (permalink) Old 07-01-2015, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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4WD Action puts Mud Terrain Tyres to the test | Myths about Mud Tyres- Busted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nqmGnd3QHk

TOP 10 Best summer tyres 2015 version of "driving" and in Autoreview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrpEGJqn7Ik

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post #55 of 396 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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Firestone MultiSeason First Drive - TyreReviews

Multiseason – Firestone’s first all-season tyre
http://www.tyrepress.com/2015/03/mul...l-season-tyre/


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post #56 of 396 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 04:53 PM
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Man, everyone's getting in on the act.

Wonder why Bridgestone decided to brand this one under Firestone?

Interesting aside:

I was wondering what "3PMSF" was, and searched out to this: How to recognize a true winter tire | Goodyear

Quote:
The "Alpine" symbol, or the three-peak-mountain with snowflake (‘3PMSF’) came into force in November 2012 under EU Regulation 661/2009 on the Safety of Motor Vehicles. The 3PMSF can only be used if a tire passes a minimum required performance on snow - the so called “snow grip index”.
It's interesting to read via that source that the EU did not adopt this standard until 2012, whereas the "Snowflake on the Mountain" ("Mountain Snowflake") symbol was in-use via the RMA/RAC since 1999.

But from there, it gets a little muddy:

It seems that the "standard" is still nothing but a "Manufacturer's declaration" - so again, the warnings that industry journalists tried to flag for us consumers back even as early as 2009 still hold true, and it looks like there has so far still not been any kind of either industry-wide or governmental-body agreed-upon standard or enforcement of such "declarations."

Source for the latter:

ETRMA - Winter tyre

The ETRMA also had this most interesting .pdf for consumers: http://www.etrma.org/uploads/Modules...tyres---fc.pdf

^ And specifically for American readers: remember that for most of the world, there is actually no such tire as our "All Season" tires. The Michelin tire engineers I spoke with back in 2010 in Dubai stated that particular concept, the "All Season tire," is a uniquely North American construct. This is why, in the above ETRMA publication, their basis of comparison is "summer" tires.

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post #57 of 396 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you, your comments are always interesting & to the point.
I'm also wondering why are all these tires are introduced in Europe, is it something like the we had with headlights years ago when U.S. Standards were not permitting introduction of new headlight designs.

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post #58 of 396 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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Winter tyres ? don?t rely on the M+S mark! » Oponeo.co.uk

What does a tyre have to do to become approved for winter use?

The detailed guidelines that enable a tyre to be classed as suitable for use in winter conditions are contained in the Corrigendum to UN ECE Regulation 117. This amendment requires that winter tyres demonstrate a specified level of performance on snow. Tyres are subjected to a braking test or a traction test. Only tyres that pass the test are allowed to carry the 3PMSF mark.
What happens in the test?

The regulations referred to above lay down a specific method by which tyres are to be tested. It has the rather complex name of “mean fully developed deceleration”, or MFDD.
In the test, the distance travelled is measured as a vehicle with ABS decelerates between two defined speeds (from 25 km/h to 10 km/h in the case of the test on snow), and then the snow grip index is calculated relative to a standard reference test tyre (SRTT). In practice, the test reveals whether and to what extent the tyre skids during deceleration.
The reference tyre is a tyre produced, controlled and stored in accordance with the relevant standard E1136-93 (2003), published by the United States standards organization ASTM.
What are the conditions for testing this type of tyre?

The test should be carried out on a level test track of compacted snow, with a maximum gradient of 2°, and of sufficient length and breadth. The snow layer must consist of:
a heavily compacted lower layer with a thickness of at least 3 cm;
an upper layer with a thickness of approximately 2 cm.
During the test, the air temperature one metre above ground should be between –2°C and –15°C, and the temperature of the snow, measured at a depth of approximately 1 cm, should be between 4°C and –15°C. It is recommended to avoid strong wind and sunlight, as well as variation in sunlight and humidity during the test and between different locations in the test zone.
How are the results interpreted?

For a tyre to be classed as a winter tyre suitable for use in tough snowy conditions, and to carry the three-peak mountain snowflake symbol, it must have a snow grip index, relative to the reference tyre, of at least:
1.07 (i.e. better by 7%) in the case of C1 category tyres (car tyres);
1.02 (i.e. better by 2%) in the case of C2 category tyres (goods vehicle tyres).
This index is defined as the ratio of the result obtained by the tested tyre to that obtained by the standard reference tyre.
The snow grip index may also be determined using a method that measures traction in snow, in accordance with the ASTM F 1805-06 standard. In this case the tyre must attain an index of 1.10, which means it needs to be 10% better than the reference tyre.
Unfortunately the exact results of the tests are not published, so it is not known which models achieved the best results in official testing. Information about the performance of particular
The table below shows the minimum snow grip index values that a winter tyre is required to attain.
Tire class Snow grip index value (braking) Snow grip index value (traction)
Example of a tyre SRTT 14 SRTT 16C SRTT 14
C1 (car tyres) 1,07 - 1,10
C2 (goods vehicle tyres) - 1,02 1,10

http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/...jsp?techid=125
In 1999, The U.S. Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) agreed on a performance based standard to identify passenger and light truck tires that attain a traction index equal to, or greater than 110 (compared to a reference tire which is rated 100) during the specified American Society for Testing and Materials traction tests on packed snow.

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post #59 of 396 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 07:07 PM
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^ Now *that* is interesting:

I tried to look up ASTM E1136-93 (2003), but didn't get far. With my limited Google-Fu, I could get no further than their opening page, and I don't really want to pay the $40 to take a look at the actual Standard Specification...especially given that I probably wouldn't understand it, anyway!

Given what the industry journalists have lamented about the "Snowflake on the Mountain" designation, does this mean that each manufacturer is responsible for cooking up the Standard tires, as it pertains to the ASTM E1136-93 (2003) specifications - but that they are free to play within the tolerances of the standard itself, in the manufacture of said tires?


-----


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex.F View Post
Thank you, your comments are always interesting & to the point.
Hey, same goes for you, too!

And besides, I'm just glad to be able to hash things like this out with fellow enthusiasts!

Quote:
I'm also wondering why are all these tires are introduced in Europe, is it something like the we had with headlights years ago when U.S. Standards were not permitting introduction of new headlight designs.
I honestly don't know.

Any which way one decides to cut it, we (North America) lags behind Europe anywhere from 2 to 5 years, with respect to winter tire "market" and knowledge.

One thing that always stuck with me was what a high-up at Continental's marketing department said in an interview - that for the European market, testing scores was what drove sales (which apparently they were so worried about that they cheated on, remember? ), while in the US, it was more about the "feeling" that the brand could generate among the consumers.

Perhaps they do this - introduce a tire first in Europe and only much later bring it to the US - out of economic concerns alone? That maybe they need to establish a dominant niche in the marketplace, first - displace their competitors from last year - overseas, and could instead count on the less logical and more sentimental Americans to essentially extend their product's useful life in the market, without having to first worry about the need to tailor the new product to this market, outright?



I honestly wish I knew.....

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post #60 of 396 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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Essentially you are saying:
Quotes and Famous Sayings - The Quotations Page › quote
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956) ...

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