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2006 Forester 2.5X
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I've played most, if not all of the driving games for both PS1 and 2, and a few for PS3.

so far, none have deilvered what I would consider "Ultimate Driving Game" status.

Here's what I think would grant a driving game that title.

I want a game like that with mass open world locations. Detroit, LA, Tokyo, Atlanta, Houston, London, etc.
drive to the tracks, street race with other online users, run from cops.
Choose to go the legit route and stay on the track.. or go the whole "Need for Speed Most Wanted" route, though crossovers would be possible at any time


Tracks:
-All of the tracks from the Gran Turismo series
-All of the Forza tracks
-All from the FIA GT games
-All from NFS: Pro-Street

-Open world environments:
-Greater Detroit area (including woodward ave, for cruising. Detroit environment includes belle isle GP and Detroit Downtown GP courses)
-Southern California (includes the greater LA area, LAX, El Toro (TG America track location) Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow and Willow Springs, as well as Infineon) (Test drive unlimited had a huge map for the largest island in Hawaii..I think this could be possible.)
-Central Germany (Including the Ring' and parts of the AutoBahn
-Central Japan (Tokyo area, Saitama and Gunma prefectures)
-Austin, Texas (Includes the Circuit of the Americas)
-London and Surrey, UK
-The Italian / Swiss Alps
-The Riviera (Italy and france, including Monaco)
-Abu Dhabi / Dubai
-Death Valley (rally enviroment)

All of the above would be available as optional downloadable content.


Using said open world environments, there would be new and used car dealerships throughout each city, as well as tuning shops, and garages to store cars, much like Test Drive: Unlimited and Grand theft auto.
Naturally, there would be hotspots where nightly races would happen. as with other such games, the stakes would be higher as the chance of police discovering the illegal activity increased.


plus:

Willow Springs
Buttonwillow
Grattan (In Michigan)
Belle Isle (Detroit GP)
Long Beach GP
Circuit of the Americas
Mosport
Moroso Motorsports Park
VIR
Lingotto Test Track (seen on the original Italian Job)
LA River (Seen on the remake of the Italian Job)
Tail of the Dragon
Stelvio Pass (TGUK S10E1)
Transfagarishan Highway (Romania. Top Gear UK Season 14, Episode 1)
Col De Torini (TGUK S10E1)
Cyprus Rally Stages
Highway 1, CA
Wangan, Japan

Also, the big building used on the "Beating Tanner" Episode of TGUS (Season 2, Episode 7)

Cars:
-All from games mentioned above

plus:
SF, Sg and SH Foresters, all versions, including diesel
Dakar Rally Support Trucks
Mk 1 and 2 escorts
Ford Cortina Mk 1 and 2
Ford Capri and Capri RS
2013 Genesis Coupe 2.0T and 3.8 (All Versions)
2013 Veloster and Veloster Turbo
Rhys Millen Veloster Rally Car
Rhys Millen Genesis Drift car
Rhys Millen Hyundai Pikes Peak Car
Suzuki SX4 PikeS Peak Car (Monster Tajima)
Suziki Liana (TG SIARPC Car)
Chevrolet Lacetti (TG SIARPC)
Kia Ce'ed (TGUK SIARPC)
Rolls Royce Phantom
BRM racers

1989 Honda Prelude Si 4WS (With actual functioning Rear steering)
(All cars with 4-Wheel steering should have it active and functioning properly in game.)
240Z (Non-ZG version)
4-door C110 skyline
4-door C10 skyline
Datsun B210
Datsun 510 1600 SSS coupe
C210 skylines
FB RX7
RX3
Nissan Laurel
Nissan Leopard
Nissan Cedric
Nissan Gloria
Holden Commodore (All versions)
Ford Falcon (AUS versions)
FOrd Falcon (US)
Dodge Dart (70's)
Dodge Dart (2013)
Subaru SVX
Subaru Alcyone
Subaru BRAT
BMW M1
BMW 1M
Nissan Pulsar GTI-R
AMC Scrambler
AMC Pacer
Chevrolet / Vauxhaul Chevette
Chevy Corvair
Chevy Vega
Ford Pinto
Chevy Monza
Hudson Hornet
64 Impala
57 Bel Air Nomad
SVT Raptor
Henessey SVT Velociraptor
Henessey Venom GT
Henessey Viper
Volkswagen Brazilia
Volkswagen Golf GTi W12
Brutus (TGUK)
Thunderguts (TGUK...owned by Brian Johnson of AC-DC)
2014 SRT Viper
Renault Espace F1
Jaguar XJ220 powered van (UK) (TGUK UK vs. AUS challenge)
Ariel Atom (All versions)


Tuning:

RM option on pickups convert them into Baja Trophy trucks
Cross-manufacturer engine swaps (20B into an S2K, etc..)
Engine Fine-tuning
-timing
-boost
-fuel maps (advanced)

Engine blueprinting:
-bore and stroke adjustable independantly of each other
-head gasket thickness variance
-Porting and Polishing heads

Engine items:
-name brand components to choose from
-titanium valve components
-custom billet blocks
--drag version...no coolant jackets. Strip use only..

Experimental engine components:
-composite rods, blocks, etc.

Electric accessory swaps (WP, P/S, etc.)
Clutch fan to Electric fan swaps
radiator swaps

(Make it like tuning a real car. little by little. small parts here and there.)

There should be several different exhaust and intake options for each vehicle, based on sound and performance gains.
Composite body panels, Time attack-style widebody kits (with headlight deletes)

Drag mods:
-narrow wheels on non-drive axles
-headlight intake conversions
DLC

Rally Mods:
-anti-lag system
-long-travel suspension

Drift Mods:
-move engine rearward
-increase steering angle


I'd also add more wheel options and perhaps a custom body panel generator.

Other game features and physics:

Suspension:
-Changes in geometry would give either positive or negative effects, depending on how it was modified.
--those opting for the "Oni-kyan" (Demon Camber) look would have severely excessive tire wear. Wheel bearings would gradually be damaged, affecting how the car drove. Eventually, the wheel would just fall off if you drove on it long enough.
--those opting for the "Donk" look would have a much higher COG, and therefore much more prone to roll over. The big wheels would also create a much higher load on the engine, making speed and acceleration more sluggish.


There would also ideally be several "cheaper" and less-than-desireable ways to customize the car. (Cutting springs, for a cost of less than $10, cheap wheels, at half the price of the stronger wheels, but would risk the chance of breaking, etc...all the issues we face in the Real World.)

Would also be an option to install Air-ride, and would be allowed for use in very few races. primarilly used for the "Show Circuit" mode. (Same with Donks, Lowriders, etc.)

if I had my way, there would be many options that would fit into the category "Just because it's possible doesn't mean you should do it". that way, just because someone spent 250K on "go-fast" parts doesn't mean they will be faster, or as reliable as an identical car, tuned with similar, actual quality parts for 25% more money.

Rally Mode:
-co-driver pace note readout like the GT5 Rally school

-terrain differences should make a difference on speed more so than already present in games.
For example, cars with street tires, at stock ride height should slow down less in sand traps than a lowered vehicle on slick tires.

Also, Dirt terrains are not all the same. Few rally stages have nicely grated surfaces. there needs to be ruts, chatter-bumps, potholes and such that mess with the steering, cause increased effort in steering, and generally make it harder to maintain speed. Said imperfections would even cause suspension damage in certain difficulty settings.

Tarmac Rally stages (As opposed to normal road courses) would be similar, with varying road widths, drainage ditches beside the roads, curbs, trees right alongside the road that will be possible (and probable) to hit, enabling wrecks like those seen in the many rally crash compilations on youtube.

road courses:
on city streets, traction is affected by debris on the road, oils spilled by commuters, steel drain and man-hole covers, railroad tracks, puddles, potholes, ruts caused by heavy vehicles on asphalt, painted lines on the road, wet leaves and such. the game should reflect this.

on all paved surfaces, track temperature should affect car performance. higher radiant heat means higher intake air temps, warmer tires, higher driver fatigue, etc. Same goes for colder temps. lower air intake temps, more efficient power creation, lower grip levels.

There also needs to be a calculation for wind.
essentially, real world driving conditions.

ALso, the damage model is a bit too...slow. it takes far too long to destroy a car with full damage on. True real-world damage would make the races significantly more difficult.

Fuel usage: this needs to be as acurate as possible, as does tire wear.
a Veyron, in GT5, on Roue X can do several laps before it's fuel and tires are gone. in real life, it can maintain top speed (250-ish) for 12 minutes before it's fuel is gone, and 15 before it's tires are as well.)

Also...
the driver assist feature should allow players to select "Noob" level, (All on),
factory normal, factory sport, and Off.

if a player wants to run without ABS, it should be an upgrade to reprogram or remove the ABS module. This would, in most cases, remove TCS as well.

There also needs to be more than the usual 5 default camera settings.
Enable placement of as many go-pro cameras as the player wants, wherever they want to mount them.

Exterior Color customization should be as in-depth as it is in Forza. full color customization as well as OE dealer colors for all the cars in the game, available for any car.

Interior color should be custom too, enabling custom carpeting, no carpet, custom dashboards and consoles, no dash or consoles, custom gauges (choose from several brands and configurations), custom steering wheels, shift knobs, seats, pedals, etc.

The player should be able to customize their driver in an in-depth way, not unlike the character customization utility in games like Oblivion and Skyrim (Naturally, only human drivers.)

Certain cars would be able to have body conversions. for example, S14 silva with an S15 front, or a Stagea with an R34 skyline front.

Cars should be allowed to run with certain body panels missing (either due to removal to save weight, or removal in a wreck.
For example, certain hatchbacks with a non-structural hatch could run without the hatch.

Game Modes:

Career
-Drag career
-Drift career
-Time Attack Career
-Spec Racing (SCCA, NASA, or another sanctioning Body.) (DLC)
-GT (Think ALMS, FIA GT, Etc.) (DLC)
-Open Wheel (DLC)
-Rally
-Stock Car Racing (DLC)

Arcade / Quick Race (Single Player)

Multi-Player (Split Screen)

Multiplayer online

Car Show mode ( like photo mode in GT5)

more later, I think
 

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2006 Forester 2.5X
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Discussion Starter #4
reason I said "Game" is that in reality, accomplishing most of those things in real life (becoming a professional racing driver, driving all the good tracks in the world, etc...) just isn't possible for those of us who fall into the 95% of americans who make $25K a year.
 

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1998 Forester El 4eat-me
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great idea, would buy


but too much time into the physics of the game, seems like its a lot to fit into a race (thinking wind and what not with all the little tweaks)

I am sure it can be done though :)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
imagine the sheer amount of space the data would take up...would need a few dics..reminiscent of old windows games.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
lol..I was severely bored at work.
But if I had the skills to develop the game, I'd do it.
I love GT5, but it just leaves alot to be desired.
 

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2011 Forester Limited Auto w/nav
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Coding all this is doable, but from a game play standpoint, at what point does the limitations of a computer start to limit it?

I like driving games too, but none of them has come anywhere close to simulating the actual experience of driving even an ordinary car.

1. I am looking at a computer screen where the third dimension is simulated to some order of crappy-ness. I suppose this could be mitigated by improvements with 3-D but we ain't there yet.

2. There is either no or inadequate feedback through the steering wheel (aka plastic round joystick) that simulates the actual feedback of driving a car.

3. There is no sensory feedback concerning lateral or longitudinal acceleration. It is tough getting through a corner at 9/10 without it.

The point is that the limitation on the "realism" of driving games is not the coding of the physics, but the tactile and other sensory feedback that is essential when you are driving a real car.

All the physics that you listed in your original post could be coded, probably by your average 14 year old computer geek. :) But without the improvements of the sensory feedback, you are still left staring at a 30 inch screen with a round plastic joystick clamped to your desk.
 

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07 Columbia Manual
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104 Posts
What wheel are you using/Game are you playing?
I race mainly rFactor on PC and my feedback is very good. If you find your force feedback is not so great it could be the game or it could be your settings. It takes some doing but once you have rFactor set up right it really comes alive and you can 'feel' the car very well. Its not 'real' as you can never feel the balance that you do in a real car but it can be very good.

I race simulators and nothing else. I find most of the need for speed games amusing at best and for me the best racing game is full simulator with race cars. My idea has always been to have several games in one. So for instance you can get race team management games, games where you design and engineer cars and of course games where you are a driver. I want something that has all three so you can choose to do any of them.
I would be honestly happy with the most realistic simulation possible and some high end graphics.

Re: the original game idea... that is pretty much what test drive unlimited was made out to be but it was in fact the most disappointing game i have ever played. I even wrote a email and letter about how bad it was and told them i would never be back (and i don't complain about anything ever).
 

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2006 Forester 2.5X
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Discussion Starter #14
I'm playing GT5 with the standard PS3 controller, but I'vep layed other racing games with the wheel. To be totally honest, the only way to get even close to "real driving" from a video game is to be in a simulator with a full range of motion. I've seen a few simulators, and even got the chance to operate one. it was cool, but still left a few things to be desired.

Turning G-forces can be acchieved by tilting to one side or the other, but the sensation of forward movement just isn't there yet.

I'm not expecting this concept to deliver 100% realism outside of a simulator, but I do expect a high level of realism from any game that calls itself "The Real Driving Simulator".

I've played many racing sims, racing games and such, including all of the releases of Need for Speed, Forza 2 and 3, Gran Turismo 2,3,4 and 5, Dirt, Grid, Juiced 1 and 2 (sucked), Test Drive Unlimited 1 and 2 (Sucked), and numerous other titles, though not rFactor.

I would run rFactor, but my computer is severely lacking the computing power to run anything more demanding than AutoCAD 2004.

I know that the list I made above is likely too much to ask for a video game at this present time, but who knows..someday the technology might allow to have all of that and more.

I just want to have a game where the cars handle like real cars, are affected by worn components, road imperfections, different tire brands, weather conditions like real cars are.

Having a "Fuel Mileage" race on GT5 takes far too long. I want realistic fuel consumption.
Having a no-holds barred, body contact encouraged race is also futile. I've never had a body panel fall off in GT5. in Forza 3, however, the slightest brush with the armco at the ring would remove both bumpers.
 

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2006 Forester 2.5X
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Discussion Starter #15
if the damage model and handling physics in GT5 were like those in GTR-2 or newer FIA GT games, I'd be happy.
 

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2016 Forester XT Touring
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I know this is a little off topic but here goes:
I don't understand why the Forester XT isn't in car racing video games. It can fit in several different categories and has been know to be quick for it's abilities in real life. Everytime I play Forza 4 and I change options on a car, I always put Volk RE30's on the cars b/c it is one of the lightest wheels in the game. Also happens to be my favorite wheel and want them for my XT. But it kills me everytime I use that wheel b/c I don't have an XT in the game to use it on. /rant

back on track with original topic,
I think a Stadium racing portion in the car game would be fun.
I have always been a fan of open world driving, maybe having a spot that people recognize or know. I forget which game it is(think it is on Wii) but my friend's wife bought the game just because you could drive through her neighborhood in Michigan. Things like that, get people attached to the game, even if it is for only 1 course.
 

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07 Columbia Manual
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104 Posts
I'm playing GT5 with the standard PS3 controller, but I'vep layed other racing games with the wheel. To be totally honest, the only way to get even close to "real driving" from a video game is to be in a simulator with a full range of motion. I've seen a few simulators, and even got the chance to operate one. it was cool, but still left a few things to be desired.

Turning G-forces can be acchieved by tilting to one side or the other, but the sensation of forward movement just isn't there yet.

I'm not expecting this concept to deliver 100% realism outside of a simulator, but I do expect a high level of realism from any game that calls itself "The Real Driving Simulator".

I've played many racing sims, racing games and such, including all of the releases of Need for Speed, Forza 2 and 3, Gran Turismo 2,3,4 and 5, Dirt, Grid, Juiced 1 and 2 (sucked), Test Drive Unlimited 1 and 2 (Sucked), and numerous other titles, though not rFactor.

I would run rFactor, but my computer is severely lacking the computing power to run anything more demanding than AutoCAD 2004.

I know that the list I made above is likely too much to ask for a video game at this present time, but who knows..someday the technology might allow to have all of that and more.

I just want to have a game where the cars handle like real cars, are affected by worn components, road imperfections, different tire brands, weather conditions like real cars are.

Having a "Fuel Mileage" race on GT5 takes far too long. I want realistic fuel consumption.
Having a no-holds barred, body contact encouraged race is also futile. I've never had a body panel fall off in GT5. in Forza 3, however, the slightest brush with the armco at the ring would remove both bumpers.
You sound like you would enjoy rFactor as you sound just like me when it comes to racing games haha. I would love to build a full simulator but i have not started doing so to save my bank account going bust!
It is my goal someday though but some of the really full on setups cost about as much as a competition go kart and i would much rather race a real kart.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
yeah...I need to build a new computer. Just for rFactor...
My current desktop is, I'm ashamed to admit, a 2004 Model Dell Dimension 2400 (2.8GHz Pentium 4 single core processor) with an add-in EVGA GeForce 6200 PCI video card (Not even PCI-E), a Creative Labs Sond Blaster 2 SE audio card (On it's last legs) 2 GB of DDR RAM (4x more than stock) and a 320GB IDE HDD (4x bigger than stock)....not much else can be upgraded (Aside from 1 possible processor upgrade...not easy to find anymore considering it was a 3.0GHz Pentium 4...) due to Dell Proprietary parts....:chair:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
You sound like you would enjoy rFactor as you sound just like me when it comes to racing games haha. I would love to build a full simulator but i have not started doing so to save my bank account going bust!
It is my goal someday though but some of the really full on setups cost about as much as a competition go kart and i would much rather race a real kart.
I would as well, apart from 1 small detail...I'm 6'5"...a little big for a kart.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Additions to my first post.
More detail

....in the open world racing mode, there would be a strict speed limit, and cops that could keep up with the fastest (factory-tuned) cars. Much like the Need For Speed Carbon / Most Wanted / Hot Pursuit / Undercover cops, though the AI from NFS for the Cops was horrid.

And no random "appearance" of cops. They would all come from the Police station unless they were already out patroling, like in real life. This would mean there would be an almost predictable (for more experienced players) ammount of response time from the initial dispatch call to when the cops actually arrived on the scene.

and to make the stakes that much higher, the police could, and more than likely would raid and sieze the players prpoerty if the bounty went high enough.
Players would be forced to continue with the car they were in while the garage was raided...rebuild their collection, etc. This would give added risk in continuing in the street racing direction, but would provide motivation to race in legit, legal venues.

Unlike in games such as Driver, Midnight Club or GTA, hitting other cars, stealing cars parked in a public parking area, pedestrians or driving on the sidewalk or anywhere other than the road would not result in a temporarily raised Wanted level. that would stay on the players record.


Each player would have to register each car to be driven on the street, with the in-game equivilent of the DMV / SOS, though it would take mere seconds rather than hours.
Simply to get a license plate. Registration would not be required to move on with the game, though lack of registration would create more attention from the cops.

Track-only vehicles would not need to be registered, though Insurance would be a must. In certain modes of the game, damage would be repairable, (in Multi-player mode, the damage would go away after the race ended, no need to pay anything.) and the insurance would cover most if not all of the cost. Insurance would simply deduct a cartain percentage of earnings from races. For example, if the player chose the best possible insurance, it would deduct 10% from the winnings.

Insurance would not be required but repair of the vehicle after a wreck, or accumulated damage from body contact or hitting debris would have to be paid in full by the player.

Fuel: The fuel used by the player would have to be payed for by the player. This would present pro's and cons for engine tuning. For example, they could make max power and the best performance on race gas, but the fuel would be rather costly. Or thep layer could have a lower power level on premium gas, and have lower fuel costs.

Tires: Tires would cost what they do in real life. not 36,000 dollars for a set of soft racing slicks like in GT5...

The Currency would be relative to the country of purchase. Each different country (Based on the Account info of the player) would have a multiplier to convert the currency (base currency is the US Dollar) from USD to whatever currency is used in their country. The Multipliers would be updated as the real world exchange rates changed.

Music: As with other games, this game would grant the ability to use the defaunt soundtrack, or import their own playlists.
There would also be options for XM / Sirius Satelite radio, or local radio (only available in the open-world environments, in cars equipped with radios. Local stations would be relative to the city they were playing in. More than likely the stations would be fictional.

like other online multiplayer software, players could, to boost their in-game currency, purchase currency via a credit card (not a $1 real currency to $1 in game currency rate, of course. it would be more like $1 real money = $10,000 in game currency.)

Used Car lots would bem oderated by designated users. All cars, reguardless of how they were aquired, what they've been used for, or how they've been modified, could be sold at used or new car lots, with players able to haggle for the best price.

Livery: Cars could be customized with graphics, stickers and custom paint jobs.
There would, of course, bel imits to what could be done. Naturally no adult content portrayed in the scheme of the car. (Nudity, foul language, etc.)

Sponsors:
Both real and fictional companies would offer sponsorships (in game only). These companies would have in-game versions of actual aftermarket performance or appearance Items, as prizes for winning certain legit events.
Street racers would not see these benefits.

Garages: in the open world mode, players would have the option to buy one of many garages in the city. other players would have garages there as well. There would be limits to how many garages could be opened, of course.
Those with garages could use it to store and work on their own cars, or use it to offer tuning services to other players. Certain players could earn quite a large amount of in-game currency tuning cars.
The garages range from small 2-bay service garages to large, warehouse-sized garages with room for up to 500 cars. Owners of the garages can sell the buildings to other players, or to real-estate agencies. Owners could also rent out space to other players.

Public parking structures would be available, but there would be no garantee that the car would be there the next time you went to the garage.


An edit on the physics portion.
As the car gets damaged, the aerodynamics of the car change. the loss of a front bumper and/or splitter would induce more aerodynamic understeer (front end lift). The loss of the side skirts or rear bumpers would cause underbody lift, and the loss of a rear wing would cause rear end lift or a simple lack of downforce.

Loss of half of one item would cause aerodynamic instability, and likely aerodynamic lift.


Engine fine-tuning capability (Valves, cams, forced induction, etc.) would be tuned via software very similar to virtual engine dyno software.

Suspension would take everything into consideration: Roll center, Center of Gravity, Scrub Radius, wheel offset, SAI, camber, caster, Toe, Steering angle, etc.
 
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