[Soobs]

Hey folks,

I've been lurking this forum for a long time and I just decided to make my first post. :banana:

I know a lot of you were a little concerned with the Subaru of America switch from the black Tokyo Roki to the blue Honeywell oil filters last year. I decided to cut a Honeywell open and see how it compared to it's aftermarket version, the FRAM PH9715. Unforunately I cannot post a URL here until I have 15 posts, so if someone wants to PM me I can PM you back the youtube URL and you could post it.

 

[toddlamp]

Yeah PM me

 

[toddlamp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5FunfkPfjk

 

[TC2000]

Looks like ill be using a Purolator filter next oil change.. thanks for the video.

 

[Soobs]

Looks like ill be using a Purolator filter next oil change.. thanks for the video.

What do you typically use?

 

[neoshi]

Goood video! One of the best analysis vids of our components I've seen! Thanks!

Good thing I still have a small stock of Tokyo Rokis

 

[toddlamp]

Now, can we get a vid of how the old black filters compare to the new blue ones?

 

[bbottomley]

Interesting. It's fashionable to badmouth Fram, but they sure do look like the same thing down under the skin.

 

[TC2000]

What do you typically use?

Factory blue ones

 

[guylr]

Good work, thanks for the video and welcome to the forum.

Guy

 

[neoshi]

Now, can we get a vid of how the old black filters compare to the new blue ones?

Whoever wants to cut them up, I have two Tokyo Rokis I could probably ship.

 

[hofcat]

This video supports my suspicion that the pressure relief valve in the North American Subaru filter built by Fram is not the 23 psi claimed in a several year old ship manual, but the same as the FRAM brand third party bypass valve Fram says is 12 psi. If those two bypass are dimensionally identical and the Subaru relief pressure was supposed to be 23 psi, he would feel the difference in the Subaru spring. It should be nearly twice as stiff and that would be noticeable. I never believed a shop manual was a contract specification for a filter and I never believed Subaru would pay extra cost for their filters to have a unique bypass pressure and not just accept the pressure of the multi-application FRAM filter. The only difference between the two is the P-ring, which is a part the customer can see.

 

[Soobs]

This video supports my suspicion that the pressure relief valve in the North American Subaru filter built by Fram is not the 23 psi claimed in a several year old ship manual, but the same as the FRAM brand third party bypass valve Fram says is 12 psi. If those two bypass are dimensionally identical and the Subaru relief pressure was supposed to be 23 psi, he would feel the difference in the Subaru spring. It should be nearly twice as stiff and that would be noticeable. I never believed a shop manual was a contract specification for a filter and I never believed Subaru would pay extra cost for their filters to have a unique bypass pressure and not just accept the pressure of the multi-application FRAM filter. The only difference between the two is the P-ring, which is a part the customer can see.

Hofcat, that was my concern too. After I shot the video I took apart the bypass relief valves and extracted the springs. The spring in the OEM filter appears to have something between 1/2" to 1" more wire coiled than the aftermarket; however, I didn't notice any appreciable difference in firmness until they're almost completely compressed. I really believe both of these filters will begin to open their bypasses under the same initial PSI; however, the OEM filter may take a higher PSI to fully open. Again, that's just my non-scientific assumption based on feel.
Moreover, as far as the plastic valve and relief hole go they both have identical dimensions on both filters.


And just FYI... the PH9715 is a very Subaru specific aftermarket filter, not a one-size-fits-all. The only thing it is cross-referenced to besides Subaru vehicles is a Saab 9-2x.

 

[erikwi]

Whoever wants to cut them up, I have two Tokyo Rokis I could probably ship.

I think I've got some used black filters in my filter bucket. If someone wants one to cut open, I'll figre out a way to ship it.

 

[Tuned200]

Very cool video!

 

[TexasForester]

Most all filters appear to be very similar. I use whatever is available at reasonable price. I bought a carton of chinese filters from ebay that also appear very similar. I haven't disassembled one to investigate, however only the filter element is likely to be of any significance. Quality can only be valued if you can recognize adequate quality. Adequate quality would eliminate any wear due to circulated particles in the oil. I've seen very little information on wear vs filtration efficiency (ability to trap particles to some minimum size). Many tout the virtues of premium filters, however fram, et al may be more than adequate and premium quality represents nil value.

You can w/ some difficulty calculate the relief valve lift pressure. Disassemble and determine precise diameter of relief opening w/ caliper. Compress spring on a postage scale to closely approximate the compression level (spring length) w/ relief valve seated and note push force on scale. Spring appears to have adequate width/length ratio to be stable w/o support. Spring force/relief opening area = relief pressure.

Nice video and comments.

Regards

 

[bluesubie]

This video supports my suspicion that the pressure relief valve in the North American Subaru filter built by Fram is not the 23 psi claimed in a several year old ship manual, but the same as the FRAM brand third party bypass valve Fram says is 12 psi. If those two bypass are dimensionally identical and the Subaru relief pressure was supposed to be 23 psi, he would feel the difference in the Subaru spring. It should be nearly twice as stiff and that would be noticeable. I never believed a shop manual was a contract specification for a filter and I never believed Subaru would pay extra cost for their filters to have a unique bypass pressure and not just accept the pressure of the multi-application FRAM filter. The only difference between the two is the P-ring, which is a part the customer can see.

I would say it does not support the suspicion since it was not measured. 09rexwagon on nasioc measured the relief valve in the new OEM Fram and he claims that it was 23 psi's. He also measured the Tokyo Roki and claimed that it was not 23 psi's as also stated by SoA.

All that aside, I'll be running the blue can of death for 6-7,500 mile OCI's so I'll advise if I have any problems.

I used to always bash Fram because it was fashionable too. Although my dad has run Fram's for a long time and keeps his GM trucks for 250k-350k miles. I know there are a lot of reports of them exploding, although I have not heard of any problems specifically relating to the Subaru OEM's. :Banane17:
From the bottom of this page

Bad news guys. I just cut open the black Tokyo Roki oil filter....it does NOT have the 23.2psi bypass pressure that Subaru calls for. So it wasn't a fib that they did not meet the specifications. The Blue Honeywell filter does however meet the 23.2psi pressure (I measured this myself over 2 filters with 5 totals trials for an average of 23.5psi).

The Tokyo Roki averaged in the high 18psi range. I used a digital scale to get the force that is accurate to the gram so I know that metric is accurate. To dumby check myself, I subtracted .5mm from the diameter of the plunger surface (even though my calipers are accurate to the tenth of a milimeter). Even with that imposed error, the bypass pressure was in the mid 19psi range.

So now the issue is: is it better to have better filtration in a filter that may bypass more frequently, or is it better to have not a great a filtration but has the correct bypass pressure for our high flow oil pumps..

-Dennis

 

[Buddur]

Most all filters appear to be very similar. I use whatever is available at reasonable price.

+1 Got an STP oil filter free with the purchase of a 5-gal pail of 5w-30 today. To me it's not so much the brand, just as long as the filter is replaced frequently. From what I've heard, problems generally only arise when the filter is left on too long.

And that was an interesting video...thanks for posting it.

 

[Tremo]

Thanks for the video. I think I'll stick with the PurOnes I've been using.

 

[tmgoethe]

Great video. How many coils were the two springs and can you measure the spring wire diameter?

If it were possible to measure deflection of the spring by using weights to compress them to the same length, that would provide some useful data, though the best way would be to pressurize oil and see at what point it opens.

And I was wondering if Subaru is specifying the begins to open pressure or the completely open pressure at 23 psi. If it is the beginning to open pressure, there should be a rating for the fully open pressure as well, shouldn't there?

I'm a bit paranoid about filters and have been appalled at how puny they have gotten on all cars. Then I discovered there is no fuel filter or transmission filter on it. Sheesh.

Thanks again, very informative.