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Discussion Starter #1
Just to recap: I've been skiting on for years now about how during my apparent DPF regen events there is a large loss of performance and economy. recently I've noticed there are far more of them in the ~20-30C range. In the past couple of days, the events have occurred at distances of 70, 47 and 47km apart in suburban highway running and usually run for 10km or so.

Well, Yippee! I've had a couple of outcomes today. They pose more questions than answers currently, but progress is being made.

1) Data has been logged by a Subaru dealer for sending to Subaru today. It didn't happen until I was on the way back to the dealership, however I was able to have the event logged and demonstrate the performance deficit to the service manager. They reckon they'll get back to me, in the eternal words of Con the Fruiterer (old Aussie pop culture reference), "A cuppla days."

2) Typically the apparent regen initiated itself just before I arrived at work today (like, turning into the driveway) and before going to the dealer nearby. After some teeth gnashing, I drove around a bit and logged some of my own basic OBD-II data. The throttle position variable does indeed vary downwards under acceleration during this event, reverting to 78.43 or 78.82% upon release of accelerator. I have not logged it varying outside the event.

3a) Note the terms "apparent" and "event". One thing the service manager did tell me was the car was not logging it as a DPF regen- the last DPF regen logged was some ~670km ago.

3b) The service manager said he hasn't seen anything like this before. He didn't seem unhappy with my driving style and the dealership is familiar and experienced with a few diesel engine issues now. I hope Subaru don't impound the car for further testing!

More to come when results are in. I wonder what the thing's up to or thinks it's up to?
 

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interesting. IIRC the counter only tallies successfully completed regens, I wonder if something is causing them to be cancelled before completion?
 

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Sorry for stealing the topic a bit...

I don't know if anybody has done it on this forum or if there has been any discussion about it, but in Finland we have a lot of Diesel Boxers with Ecutec re-mapping, DPF removal and EGR disabling done.

We have had quite a lot of problems with DPF's because of our cold weather, as the filter don't much like short trips at winter time.

I suppose Ecutec is available in Australia as well, so the DPF removal shouldn't be any problem anymore.

Some comments about the car at the current state (Outback 2010, we also have punch of Fozzy's with the same treatment):

The engine is now really great, power is around 190-200 hp, torque restricted to about 430 Nm, as the flywheel can't take more. Clutch is totally fine. Earlier the power went down pretty bad after 3600 rpm, now the engine won't suffocate at all, and revs easily and with full power up to the redline. The stock map is totally ridiculous, Subaru engineers still have much to learn about diesels.

The bottom end is better with some extra torque, and as the boost demand is practically at full all the time, spooling is noticeable better. Max boost is 1,7 bar (stock 1.5).

As the EGR is disabled, I cleaned the boost / charge air temperature sensor, and suppose it won't get clogged anymore (we have had problems with that). Also the intake manifold will stay much cleaner.

Fuel consumption has dropped a bit (around 0,5 liters / 100 km), mainly because of missing regenerations. As the engine now makes good power and likes to rev, I tend to used the power more than earlier. Maybe because of this the consumption hasn't dropped so much.

I can only recommend this treatment to you car if possible, the engine now works as it should have been from the factory, and the annoying DPF won't be a problem anymore.

I have done 14 000 km with my can tuned, and have had no complaints. Of course I'm careful in letting the engine warm well before pushing if, and avoid too low revs at big load, as flywheel would not like that.
 

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@Peacemaker76, Thank you for this useful info!
And yes, don't worry about these Australian guys, because that where Ecutec comes from :)
May I ask you a couple of questions:
what is the total mileage of your car?
what was the cost of your mods, I assume it will be more or less the same here in Sweden?
I guess you're leaving black clouds behind you, without the DPF, can this be a problem at the annual technical check (bilprovningen)?
 

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@Peacemaker76, Thank you for this useful info!
And yes, don't worry about these Australian guys, because that where Ecutec comes from :)
May I ask you a couple of questions:
what is the total mileage of your car?
what was the cost of your mods, I assume it will be more or less the same here in Sweden?
I guess you're leaving black clouds behind you, without the DPF, can this be a problem at the annual technical check (bilprovningen)?
My car has 53 000 km at the clock. We have much more driven cars modded here as well, no problems at all.

The cost was around 1300€ with DPF removal if I remember right.

Not much black cloud, just a little grey smoke when you really step on the pedal, after that no smoke even on full throttle.

At the inspection check, at least in Finland you rev the engine at neutral, smoke value was 0 for my car even after the mods. The test measures smoke with optical instruments, DPF catches small particles that are not measured.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Regen truncation

interesting. IIRC the counter only tallies successfully completed regens, I wonder if something is causing them to be cancelled before completion?
Yes...me! Can you blame me when the darn thing starts a regen as I turn into the driveway? :icon_biggrin:

Having said that, most start with a few klms of journey's end (~20-25mins to work) and usually complete enough to *NOT* start next journey.

With this current issue, I have noticed if the "regen" runs for a few minutes and I stop briefly e.g. to get a coffee, when I restart the engine it is in the same 'regen' mode at idle, as I pull out in first there I can feel a *slight* change and normal running resumes.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
DPF regens, holidays and logs

Holiday weekend here in Oz (Australia Day) so no info from Subaru about the logging until at least Tuesday.

In the meantime I've logged an extended (3+ hrs) trip myself including a (assumed) DPF regen. When I get my mind together (and it's not early am) I'll post details and deductions up. It's only very basic OBD-II type data but there's still things to be seen.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
'DPF Regen' logging info- Runs 1 and 2

Well, no information from Subaru so far. Dealer is (was?) chasing it up.
In the meantime, I’ve done some basic OBD-II logging of my own on some extended drives. The upshot is the ‘DPF Regen’ again is far more prevalent between ~20-30°C than 10-20°C.

Here are some deductions and info about the logging I’ve done.

Data logger device: EBay VGate Mini Auto Bluetooth OBD2 OBD-II EOBD-II CAN BUS Diagnostic Scanner

Program used: wOBD v1.5.0 / obd2crazy

Parameters Logged:
PID Parameter
0104 Calculated Engine Load (%)
0105 Coolant Temp (°C)
010A Fuel Pressure (kPa, no data)
010B Manifold Air Pressure (kPa)
010C Engine RPM (rpm)
010D Vehicle Speed (km/h)
010F Intake Air Temp (°C)
0110 Air Flow (g/sec)
0111 Throttle Position (%, NOT accelerator pedal!)

Some conclusions from the logged data:
  • Logged vehicle speed is quite accurate. The Vehicle Speed vs Speedo reading vs GPS speed: showed a close correlation between the Vehicle and GPS speeds, about 1km/h at 100-110km/h (~1%). This is quite good considering the variance in tyres that must be fitted: mine are ~1/2 worn 215/65R16 Geolandar A/T-S. The Speedo reading (not worthy of being called a speed) is, as per just about everyone else it seems, ~8km/h high at 110km/h (GPS) and neither precise nor accurate as it scales with speed. As I assume the vehicle odometer is linked to the vehicle speed I’ll assume the odometer is also quite accurate.
  • Basically a ‘DPF regen’ is indicated by the following order of events:
  • No ‘DPF regen’: The throttle position reading normally stays at ~87%
  • IAT (Inlet Air Temp) rises w/o any other observable changes in the logged data as ‘DPF regen’ approaches.
  • The ‘DPF regen’ issue can be indicated by the throttle closing to “5%”. Value will vary depending on running conditions but is less than the normal 87% except under heavy acceleration.
  • There is a drop in IAT under ‘DPF regen’ resulting in noisier running (rattly/’nailing’) as per what dpm said (and makes sense). Can I speculate this means the turbo is effectively being bypassed and straight inlet air is being inducted and this is the throttle reading?
  • Under acceleration during a “DPF regen’ (pedal to the floor):
    • Throttle starts to open again, takes some seconds.
    • IAT starts to rise- as the temp response takes a while I suggest it’s a bit hidden as accel is usually over by the time the temp starts to rise.
    • Can I speculate this is caused by the turbo being ‘reincluded’ into the induction system and the time this takes is causing the substantial lag?
    • Changing gears recycles this whole acceleration sequence issue as the throttle snaps closed again.
  • Roughly ~12.2mins per regen (similar to what dpm posted)
Descriptions of the drives in the next two posts by me. Both drives have been completed on the same tank of diesel.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Drive 1: Canberra – Sydney (suburb) – Sydney (suburb 2).

Description: Freeway/motorway 287km - urban highway 26km. Basically: onto the freeway at 110km/h for 2.4hrs, 100km/h for 0.3hrs, urban for 0.2hrs, break for 0.3hrs, urban 0.6hrs.

Trip Time: Logged ~3hrs before laptop battery exhausted.

Weather: Cool, humid, isolated light showers, temp ~12-18C

Number of ‘DPF regen’ events: 1 during logging.(unnoticed due to tangling with 4 lanes of traffic under cruise at the M31/M5/M7 interchange). ‘DPF Regen’ occurred around the 110-100km/h transition. By that stage the distance between ‘DPF regens’ was approx 400 km.

Comments- Post-logging trip: After logging there was approx 2hrs break then ~0.5hrs - break (~20 mins) - 0.5hrs of urban/urban highway driving to our final destination. The next ‘DPF regen’ occurred almost at the end (typical!) of this time. The temp had risen to mid 20’s C and distance between ‘DPF regens’ was 80km. Regen started just before the end of the trip.

Please see the attached graph image.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Drive 2: Sydney (suburb) – Canberra. Basically a reverse of Drive 1

Description: Brief unlogged 5 min urban drive (unlogged due to comms problems) 95% Freeway/motorway – some urban highway at beginning and end, one brief stop. Basically: onto motorway at 80km/h, then 100km/h, then freeway at 110km/h, brief stop (~30 mins), resume 100km/h on freeway/highway, urban highways for 0.2hrs.

Trip time: Logged ~3hrs.

Weather: warm, dry, temp ~22-28°C.

Number of ‘DPF regen’ events: 5 logged, 4 noticed.

Comments:
At 5 regens per ~3hrs (and approx 272km) that’s:
  • 1 regen every ~35 min or ~64km at 110km/h. One spacing was as small as 35km (noticed). Compare to Drive 1 which had ~400km between ‘DPF regens’.
  • At 12min/’DPF-regen’ that leaves ~24 min ‘normal running’ per ~35min cycle for a 1:2 ratio of ‘DPF-regen’ to normal running.
  • First regen appears shorter due to starting the logging a tad late (comm. problems)
Note all these cycles have completed properly as during this Drive the car was only stopped once on the way (lunch) ~2/3 of the way along and at the end.


Please see the attached graph image.
 

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You'll be needing to log DPF delta-P and exhaust temps to see whether the regen demand is real or spurious. I'm wondering if the pressure sensor is drifting at high ambient temps, or such.
 

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Pitrack,

This is a great thread, pls continue to keep us informed.

I have qualitatively experienced what i understand you to be representing here.... except this year (in summer) i have been more interested in it as my warranty is about to expire. Basically i did a 5000kms trip North at xmas and the performance was markedly different between ambient *hot* vs *cool*. Hills i would power up on the Hume in winter became sluggish in summer.

Need to get me-self a data logger!!
 

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I am noticing increased regens myself (every 100 km or so) over the last tank or two. Thought it might of been dodgy diesel (as the source was different) but it seems to have continued. Very interested in the cause.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Time drags on...

Hello again all, sorry for the delay. Other stuff plus procrastination has meant I haven't really followed up recently on my logging.

The regens still occur in as little as 70km especially between ~20-28C and that's not all city driving either.

It's been a while since I had my Forester logged... since Jan 22 to be exact. And I haven't heard anything back from the dealer/service agent who logged the data. That's in spite of chasing it up at least a couple of times, including in person. Actually, when I rolled up I felt sorry for them seeing the piles of job card/sheets on the table. The service manager was actually on the floor doing the servicing...

Still 7-8 weeks is enough so I rang Subaru Aust. today (Thu). A young lady is chasing the service manager up for me. She actually rang back in the arvo to say the dealer hadn't replied...bit of a worry if even Subaru Aust. can't get them to ring back! :biggrin:

Anyway, see my next post for what prompted this. I pointed out to Subaru that the 8 week wait may have contributed to the current issue. I may yet chase up further by asking/advising our road service organisation (NRMA) too, just for our (and their) interest.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Blink, blink, blink... I think!

Well, didn't I get a rude shock when I hopped in the car to go to work this morning (Thu). I started the car, to an immediate "blink, blink, blink, etc." of the DPF light. :icon_eek: I had to get to a meeting at work and I needed the car to collect my daughter in the evening. Driving to the dealer or my work is basically the same trip of ~15km, so off I went under a self-generated thunderstorm :icon_evil:.

The blink indicates either a massively overfull DPF requiring a dealer regen OR oil dilution at an unacceptable level.

No problems noticed driving, certainly no regen. I stopped ~halfway as usual for my coffee. Setting off again a few minutes later, I didn't even get to the 80km/h zone to enable some sort of regen (if needed) when...it's gone! Off!! Not even steady (on the way to off)!! This wan't really good 'cos now I couldn't show the dealer.

This evening I'm now not sure I even saw it; was it a figment of my imagination (for 10 mins)??! :confused:

The wife had just returned yesterday evening from Sydney, the standard 110km/h freeway drive. She was already gone and needless to say, she'd taken the other car... She swears there were no lights when she drove (and I must say it's rather hard to miss).

Given the freeway run beforehand and the immediate flashing on startup, I'm surmising that it was the oil dilution hitting 10% (as pointed out by subdiesel.com) rather than a DPF soot clogging which would have had the steady amber first.

I guess the DPF light going off again was the oil dilution just dipping back below 10%- this time, and likely to come back again shortly.

However, when I connected on though EOBD2 this evening at home, the DTC P1468 Oil Dilution code is NOT seen. In fact, no codes are stored (at least that I can find at the moment). But following some good work by "Ghostgum" on another site ('cos dumbo me couldn't read Subdiesel's site properly), I called up the following parameter using wOBD and my dodgy generic Bluetooth OBDII interface:

V 22114E 0A [.] 10
This is the code for the Oil dilution and shows 10 (%, 0A is the hexadecimal number for the decimal number 10 located after the [.])

Now I'm going to be a bit shi**y if this is caused by the delay in getting back to me after the Jan 22 logging- this was the whole point of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Flashing DPF lights, regens and returned phone calls

Well, good news from Friday which it seems was my yearly 'networking' day. :rolleyes:

  1. After Subaru's call, the service manager rang me back so i was able to fill him in (and he me).
  2. My flashing DPF light was confirmed as the oil dilution level that afternoon and reset. No need of oil change currently.
  3. He said there had been a spike in this issue at the dealership in the past three weeks- from approx one a month/week to one a day, including vehicles with no history of any issues. Something funny's happened common to all and the only thing we can think of is fuel. Ours had been fueled in Sydney not Canberra but that's where Canberra fuel comes from (I think). Due to the recent spike he thinks my DPF light issue is separate to my ongoing regen/loss of power issue.
  4. The ongoing regen/loss of power- the vehicle has been requested for further investigation and the car is now booked in next week for dealer logging, possibly overnight.
  5. Subaru also rang me back to check on progress so I was able to fill the customer service contact in; she is keeping a log. So far she has been quite helpful.
So progress, albeit a bit slow given it'll be 2 months since the last logging.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Oils ain't oils...

Very interesting story Pitrack. Which brand of fuel are you using? Do you know it the supplier is the same for Melbourne?
I use either Caltex/Woolworths or Shell/Coles. Don't know if the supplier is the same as from Melbourne. What/where are your refineries (Altona, Geelong?) and import terminals?

(Off-topic soapbox diversion follows)
I'm surmising the following (I'm no expert): as our refineries shut down (in Sydney Clyde's gone, Kurnell's going) and become import terminals only we are becoming dependent on imported supplies. Whether that's better or worse remains to be seen but once it happens it's likely that any difference between brands will simply be even more of an additive blending exercise than it is now. Imported fuel almost certainly will come from S. E. Asia (closest area, prob. from Singapore) where any number of brand spanking new refineries are being built to supplement the current ones. Fuel quality is also dependent on the distribution and storage systems to prevent contamination. Given the recent, proven issues with fuel transportation in NSW (unroadworthy vehicles, see here), recent rain, and elderly refining, storage and transport equipment I suppose end-user issues are to be expected.

I went on-site briefly at Clyde and at other Sydney chemical/petrochem. sites around 2005 and in parts it really was like time travel back to the 1950's.

It also generally takes a lot to wind up a public servant, let alone a major government department (Roads and Marine Services NSW), to the point where they say "To hell with NSW's fuel supply- you've got two weeks to show cause or you're gone" (see here).

(Standing down from the soapbox now before y'all kick it out from under me anyway :biggrin:)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Diesel diagnostics and Impreza impressions: Preliminaries

"Where's the white car? Why's the white car in for service?"

And so it went on from my almost-3-year-old this afternoon when I picked her up in an unfamiliar blue Impreza loaner.

So the Forester's in for diagnostics (Thu) and kept overnight into Fri. I'll do a quick comparison/review of the loaner 2013 CVT Impreza vs my current cars a bit later. But two impressions first up:
  • A nice, if slightly boring/anonymous vehicle that I could possibly live with
  • The CVT freaks me out (and I think it's reciprocated)!!! :icon_eek: :bigeek: :eek:
More later on both cars.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
What's that noise?! What's that noise??!

So asked my ~3 y.o. daughter as I reversed out of the driveway. How do you explain to a ~3 y.o. that the runaway blender noise is our loaner Impreza's CVT whine? :biggrin:

Just briefly, we've got the Forester back after being in at the dealer and I have logged a CBR-SYD-CBR trip again. The regens are there, just not as noticable and perhaps further spaced. The work involved decarbonising.

It's late (make that early) so details to follow soon (a day or two).

Oh, and we had one minor DPF shudder event- my wife noticed it as well.
 
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