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Discussion Starter #1
I have a ‘13 Forester, auto, currently at 67k. Bought it with 40k on it.

May through September, the Sub mostly gets driven short distances as I am logging 75% of miles on my motorcycle. About 50% highway speed.

Oil consumption is about 1 quart/2000 miles during this time.

October through April, the Sub is my daily driver, logging about 12,000 of the roughly 18k miles per year that I drive it. These miles are 70% highway speed (~60 mph two lanes)

Oil consumption is about 1 quart/3000 miles during this time.

Noticing this uptick in warm weather/short trip oil consumption, I switched to 5W20 synthetic, thinking a slightly thicker viscosity when engine operating temps are lower, due to shorter trips, would reduce consumption.

It has not.

Any thoughts on these two different consumption rates?

Climate: upstate NY; cold winters, warm summers
Oil: 5W20 Mobil 1; changed every 6-7k







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0W vs 5W means zero. And actually the 0W is likely ever so slightly thicker at operating temp 200F.

Just add a quart of 5W-30 in summer, or winter. Or even increase the amount. Consumption will drop.
 

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1999 A/T - 235,000 mi. WA state
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I have a ‘13 Forester, auto, currently at 67k. Bought it with 40k on it.
...
Climate: upstate NY; cold winters, warm summers
Oil: 5W20 Mobil 1; changed every 6-7k
So you've got a nice low mileage car and motorcycle; you are clearly maintenance oriented for the long term. I also have a car for winter mostly and a motorcycle, BTW.

Why don't you drain/fill car oil each spring and fall; you can adjust the oil viscosity for the temp/driving distance differences as you see fit. New filter every year ... Trivial cost impact.

My '99 has 225,000 on it and doesn't need oil between changes; been doing the more-frequent-than-spec'd oil change intervals it's whole life.
 

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2017 Forester XT Touring CVT
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I have a ‘13 Forester, auto, currently at 67k. Bought it with 40k on it.

May through September, the Sub mostly gets driven short distances as I am logging 75% of miles on my motorcycle. About 50% highway speed.

Oil consumption is about 1 quart/2000 miles during this time.

October through April, the Sub is my daily driver, logging about 12,000 of the roughly 18k miles per year that I drive it. These miles are 70% highway speed (~60 mph two lanes)

Oil consumption is about 1 quart/3000 miles during this time.

Noticing this uptick in warm weather/short trip oil consumption, I switched to 5W20 synthetic, thinking a slightly thicker viscosity when engine operating temps are lower, due to shorter trips, would reduce consumption.

It has not.

Any thoughts on these two different consumption rates?

Climate: upstate NY; cold winters, warm summers
Oil: 5W20 Mobil 1; changed every 6-7k







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think your oil consumption issues might be from doing 6-7K Oil Change Intervals OCI. I bet the previous owner did the same, or might have gone over a few. these issues are caused by not changing the oil frequently enough. the damage is done. just prevent any more my more frequent changes. remember that this also means that exhaust gases from combustion and carbon is being also pushed in to the oil, reducing the service life of the oil.

trying going to 5K for OCI, and not like 5500. Change before 5K religiously and get a used oil analysis. My 09 impreza burned roughly the same amount. yes burned not leaked, i verified that. honestly i just would check and fill as needed twice a month or before a long trip. i was mostly highway driving. it seemed to be at its worse in the summer and practically cut in half in the winter. i too lived in upstate NY and now westchester.

it always would burn more from highway driving. the faster i went the more it burnt on that trip.

I don't advise messing with the viscosity. put in what is recommend from the factory. just be mindful to check level and add as needed. your right thicker oil on the top end would help so moving from a 0w-20 to a 0w-30.

just go to what @adc; recommeded. @adc; gave great advice. im just not one to change oil viscosity on a motor that uses oil pressure to adjust valve timing. that oil pressure will change when using a different oil viscosity. use what the engineers designed for.
 

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I think your oil consumption issues might be from doing 6-7K Oil Change Intervals OCI. I bet the previous owner did the same, or might have gone over a few. these issues are caused by not changing the oil frequently enough. the damage is done. just prevent any more my more frequent changes. remember that this also means that exhaust gases from combustion and carbon is being also pushed in to the oil, reducing the service life of the oil.
just go to what @adc; recommeded. @adc; gave great advice. im just not one to change oil viscosity on a motor that uses oil pressure to adjust valve timing. that oil pressure will change when using a different oil viscosity. use what the engineers designed for.
Really no verifiable proof that changing oil at 7.5 K miles affects engine longevity. The key is always to keep the oil level near the full mark. I have looked at many thousands of UOA analysis's and have done many myself. I have run numerous 10K ish mile drain intervals and wear metals were fine and the oil was also. Unless there is a mechanical problem...7.5K mile drains is not a problem. The subaru that I did this on now has 193K miles and is running strong.

Also 0W-or 5W-30 wt oil will certainly not contribute to shorter life. And willactually help extend life. That was known during the development and testing of engines designed to use 20 wt oil. Engine life needed to be certified for 150K miles. They were able to obtain only 120K miles. Don't know where that stands today.
 

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Really no verifiable proof that changing oil at 7.5 K miles affects engine longevity. The key is always to keep the oil level near the full mark. I have looked at many thousands of UOA analysis's and have done many myself. I have run numerous 10K ish mile drain intervals and wear metals were fine and the oil was also. Unless there is a mechanical problem...7.5K mile drains is not a problem. The subaru that I did this on now has 193K miles and is running strong.

Also 0W-or 5W-30 wt oil will certainly not contribute to shorter life. And willactually help extend life. That was known during the development and testing of engines designed to use 20 wt oil. Engine life needed to be certified for 150K miles. They were able to obtain only 120K miles. Don't know where that stands today.
i was not saying that 0w-20 vs 5w-30 wt oil would contribute to shorter life. the point i was trying to say was that a thicker oil on the top end (hot) will slow down an oil burning issue. also im not saying shorter life buy using different oil, im saying use what intended because of complicated valve and timing control being actuated by engine oil. which pressure and flow characteristics change with viscosity and temp.

I dont know enough about this area ( oil based timing and valve control systems) to say yes or no to using a different oil viscosity then recommend from the factory. so to be safe i said put in 0w-20 (which manufacture still recommends) and check more frequently. the owner will be ok and not further complicated the situation.

Scotty Kilmer has discussed this in the past.

I also said you gave very good advice. if i was not a tight A of a person i would just put in a heavier oil when i had the problem, so im backing your advice. i just would not do it myself.

when i had this issue i just used what the factory said and checked 2 times a month, and before long trips. FYI i was putting 25K a year on my car. so a lot of highway driving and high speed driving.

also always remember all oil are not the same. some people use less expensive "OK" oil and some people use more expensive "higher protection oil".

im not going to indulge in another oil debate. all im saying is that when you said that you frequently do 7.5K oil change and have frequently have done 10k OCIs. discuss a little more about what measures you take to do extended OCIs. example oil type, methods. i give you credit for saying that you used Used Oil Analysis UOA. so that helps other readers.

perhaps this owner knows none of this. im sure they would like to be educated so elaborate.

modern day engines burning a 1/2qt every 2K miles, is not acceptable. engines do wear over time, but this engine is too new. it should not be doing this. it might have rolled off the factory like this ( which is less likely), it still would be unacceptable. if under warranty it would have been repaired or replaced.

so at some point, what most likely has happened is that, this engine had contaminated oil running in it for two long. which has lead to premature wear. to keep the wear from getting worse, and since the engine has now worn faster then intended by designers, the OCIs should be dropped. this is so that the designed wear characteristics can be more closely maintained throughout the life of the engine.

for example engine is only 45K but worn and burning oil like a 75K engine. so even though it is at 45K trying treating it more like a 75K engine. so more frequent oil changes and switching to proven oils that are well respected, then finding an oil that works and sticking with it. this will help decrease the wear of the engine so that the owner gets more life out of it.

I still stick by my recommendation of dropping OCI to 5K and taking some oil samples and then increasing OCI from there.

but hey if your just going to sell this car. hell put diesel in engine, headlight fluid in the gas tank, and motor oil in the headlight. who cares no buddy else does accept the poor guy who will be the next owner.

seems like the previous owner to this car might have had the same mentality.
 

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many opinions on this topic, modern[post 2011 ] subaru engines of the 2.5 L size have been engineered with MPG for EPA tests in mind, with lower tension designs of the oil retention piston rings ......,,,,,,,,so unless you do a high quality block rebuild with better rings , it is not going to go away completely on this stock retained build, ..............but your data show that by moving to a more heat viscous oil with of 5w30 and not using the 0w20 mpg mandated oil, you can reduce the oil loss, making certain that the pcv valve is optimum also can help by reducing internal pressure at higher rpms, , personally i would advise using a higher flow oil filter such as Wix xp or their clone the napa platinum, design, and a full synthetic oil such as pennzoil platinum 5w30 -............... frankly a quart every 2 to 3k miles isnt bad for that car, there re many who wish their was that good, .........an acquaintence has a Porsche panamera, and he is being told by the dealer that 1 qt, every 600 miles is normal,................. try a wix xp filter and 5w30 pennzoil platinum oil and a newer pcv. see if it gets better
 

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Fair enough 1roamingnome and we certainly agree with keeping the oil level up there. And yes oil debates are usually nonproductive. Merry Christmas!
 

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<snip>trying going to 5K for OCI, and not like 5500. Change before 5K religiously and get a used oil analysis. My 09 impreza burned roughly the same amount. yes burned not leaked, i verified that. honestly i just would check and fill as needed twice a month or before a long trip. i was mostly highway driving. it seemed to be at its worse in the summer and practically cut in half in the winter. i too lived in upstate NY and now Westchester.

it always would burn more from highway driving. the faster i went the more it burnt on that trip.

I don't advise messing with the viscosity. put in what is recommend from the factory. just be mindful to check level and add as needed. your right thicker oil on the top end would help so moving from a 0w-20 to a 0w-30.
I agree - leave the viscosity alone - particularly the 'hot' viscosity - unless you have a very good reason to change it. A switch from 5w-30 to 0w-30 won't matter (and might help, due to the vagaries of oil manufacture).

A shorter OCI should help . . . the oil in your engine is not immune to change. On my current '12FXT (96k) and previous '06FXT (150k), I could easily duplicate the following: Using Mobil-1 5w-30, the engine would use 1/8-1/4 quart in the first 1000 miles of a 3000 mile OCI. It would use 1/2 quart in the 2nd 1000 miles and almost a full quart in the last 1000 miles. After an oil change, this pattern would repeat. The engine wasn't really "changing" so the change had to be something about the oil. (I've had a few UOAs done over the years - nothing unusual detected, which came as no surprise to me).

I genuinely do not believe the Mobil-1 oil was 'breaking down' as that term is normally used. But it was definitely thinning or at least changing over a 3000 mile OCI. My sense is that the Viscosity Index Improvers (VII) were not holding up. Synthetic oils use VII to make the oil thicker, so if the VII were not lasting, then the 5w-30 would start looking more like 5w-20.

- One view is that the above is clearly within Subaru's consumption ranges so just add a quart of oil and get on with life. FWIW, simply adding oil to an engine is almost always the least expensive and easiest solution.

- Or, you could experiment with other brands of oil (e.g. Castrol Syntech tends to hold up a bit longer than Mobil-1, in my experience).

- Or, you could experiment with mineral oils - Castrol makes some excellent products. For relatively short OCIs (e.g. 3000 or 5000 miles) they work just fine. And, to the extent the VII should not hold up, the oil would tend to get thicker - not thinner. So, the 5w-30 mineral oil might start looking more like 10w-30.

- Or, you could switch to a 5w-40 weight synthetic oil. The problem with the latter is that your engine will be slightly less efficient. If you follow this forum, this is a popular solution for turbo car owners, and Rotella T-6 (which only comes in 5w-40 weight) is the go-to brand. This is a low-ash oil aimed at the diesel market - tough oil for a tough neighborhood.

- Or, you could try oil brands that come with different additive packs: e.g. Shaeffer's Supreme or certain Lubri-Moly/Liqui-Moly motor oils. The problem with this solution is logistics - it may be hard to find these oil brands, and if you can find them, you may have to pay a premium price.

- Or, you could try an oil additive like MoS2 or boron in your existing oil. That's what I'm doing - using MoS2 (been using it for almost 50 years). Using the same Mobil-1 5w-30 oil, I can go 5000 miles and not use a bit of oil.

This last solution accomplished several things, aside from saving me a quart of oil. First, it reduces internal engine heat - that's a good thing which will help any oil. Second, the MoS2 forms a temporary plating on bearing and engine surfaces, so it reduces oil passage. Finally - probably most important - it provides excellent start up lubrication. MoS2 is a solid and doesn't readily drain from bearings.

The problems with this solution also include logistics - you can't buy it at your corner store or definitely not at Wally World. And, MoS2 turns your oil black.
 

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oil usage lawsuit

We own a 2011 & 2012 forester, deluxe package. We purchased both from the dealer in Redding, Ca. Both have around 90k miles, both are auto trans. There's a class action lawsuit on these two years for excessive oil usage. Both are fully dealer maintained. I read about the class action suit on this forum about 6 months ago. I noticed both were using too much oil, and I break in engines like you're supposed to. I own a 69 VW Transporter single cab pick em up truck I dropped a 1999 full race Subi 2.5 boxer, not knowing it was a prototype from Japan that was never introduced to the public. Hydraulic race lifters, no hockey pucks. It had about 20k miles on it from the looks of the underside and oil, the cam still had the grind marks, barely broken in. The dealer didn't believe me about the lifters, so I brought one in with the engine serial numbers. They couldn't find these lifters in any of their service manuals so they called Japan direct. Low and behold, it was an experimental full race engine never introduced to the public. The lifters are special order only, $200.00 each plus shipping... OUCH. My 69 is totally tricked out, VW transaxle with TALL gears that nobody wants. It will pull 110 mph in 3rd gear almost redline. I haven't opened it up in 4th, I'm chicken and want to live.
All said, the Subi's we own both qualified for a new short block engine free of charge because of the class-action lawsuit. They began using a quart at 2500 miles, instant fail on the excessive oil usage performed at the dealership. They supplied us a brand new 2018 Forester for a loaner. It takes a week or two for the engine swap. The class-action lawsuit expires at 100k miles, so get it to the dealer asap so it doesn't go over the 100k miles deadline. The dealer will test your Subi first, draining the oil, putting new Subaru only oil in it and logging the current miles when this is done. You then have to take it back to the dealer at 5000 mile mark. You are responsible to check and maintain oil level on the dip. If it shows excess oil at 2500 miles, they log it and start the paper work for a new short block for you. Happy camper you are ! Hope this helps ! I'm happy camper and so is my wife! The most important is to keep her happy :) She is a beautiful blond, but blonds need lots of space :) Joke for the day... How many blonds does it take to hold a flashlight on said area to put one simple screw in? Answer: It WON'T happen :)
Cheers and happy New Years !
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Some clarifications:

I did have the consumption test done, but it failed by 1 oz in the 1200 miles. By having the test done, I triggered the 8 year/100k extended warranty.

I have not done another test since consumption has not increased. In fact, if I was in the middle of another test right now, it would fail again. I added 3/4 quart about 1200 miles ago, and it’s only down 1/4 since (~8 oz).

The oil burning issue does not concern me, honestly. It’s predictable, I monitor it and don’t let it get down before the Add line on the dip. Like I said, closing in on 70k, it’s not getting any worse. I’d rather just keep driving it and adding a quart every 3000 or so then to risk a dealer service dept screwing up a short block replacement or new engine.

As some of you have said, mine burns far less oil than many others do anyway.

I’m still curious about the differences in rates of consumption during different seasons. Shorter trips in summer = more consumption. Longer trips in winter = less consumption. Others have said that higher speed consumption increases usage - opposite for me. Must be in summer...when I’m driving one mile here, two miles there and an occasional 50+ mile drive, those retrntion rings don’t fully reach optimal pressure and allow more oil to slip by. My 37 mile drive to work, and back home, all winter must allow them to fully seat and become mostly effective. *

I’m at 68k and will change the oil again in about a month. I think I will go back to 0W-20 though. I think you guys are right to just follow the manufacturers recommendations since 5W20 doesn’t seem to have changed consumption rates anyway.


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OrchardView10;7489575 I’m at 68k and will change the oil again in about a month. I think I will go back to 0W-20 though. I think you guys are right to just follow the manufacturers recommendations since 5W20 doesn’t seem to have changed consumption rates anyway. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE said:
The only difference between 0W and 5W is the 0W will require fewer cold cranking amps at very cold difference, The 0W is a better oil. You may actually have less oil consumption in summer wioth the 0W oil.
 

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The only difference between 0W and 5W is the 0W will require fewer cold cranking amps at very cold difference, The 0W is a better oil. You may actually have less oil consumption in summer wioth the 0W oil.
Well, we finally agree! Do you think that the brand of 0-20w oil makes a difference. I see a lot of discussion about the brand of oil on several sites. A lot of discussion about Liqui Moly’s AA 0-20w and of course Motul. I think there is agreement that they are probably a better oil, but whether or not that makes a difference in a 6-7k oil change interval is open to several opinions.

I know that in my Audi, the factory uses Castrol Edge OE Professional (made in Europe), in 5-40w. The shops around me really, really recommended Liqui Moly 5-40w. I have it in my engine now. I honestly feel like I can hear a difference. It is quieter. But that may be just my imagination.
 

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Just wanted to post my 2 cents:

I have a 2011 Forester X (AT) that was consuming about 1qt per 1000 to 1200 miles. Because my mileage was 113K Subaru of America said sorry can't help. Vehicle runs strong with gas mileage averaging around 25.2 mpg (70% highway - 30% city split). I have been using Idemitsu 0w20 (same as Subaru oil), but decided to try Valvoline high mileage oil (Full Syn - Max Life blah blah blah). I'm now at 900 miles after the oil change, and a little less than 1/4 of a QT down! I check my oil per the Subaru tech suggestions: level ground (duh), warmed up vehicle, and check oil level after engine has been off for 10 minutes. I honestly, can't believe it. Oil color looks clear still (normally is much darker with the Subaru/Idemitsu oil and the engine sounds quieter even on sub freezing days.

So, I just wanted to share my results with others dealing with this B.S.

P.S. If SOA some how reads this you've lost me as a customer; my family has had 3 Subaru vehicles and we are moving on just because of the failure to address my issue with known problem. Maybe you(SOA) should (at the very least) suggest this Valvoline miracle oil... lol!
 

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Well, we finally agree! Do you think that the brand of 0-20w oil makes a difference. I see a lot of discussion about the brand of oil on several sites. A lot of discussion about Liqui Moly’s AA 0-20w and of course Motul. I think there is agreement that they are probably a better oil, but whether or not that makes a difference in a 6-7k oil change interval is open to several opinions.

I know that in my Audi, the factory uses Castrol Edge OE Professional (made in Europe), in 5-40w. The shops around me really, really recommended Liqui Moly 5-40w. I have it in my engine now. I honestly feel like I can hear a difference. It is quieter. But that may be just my imagination.
I like the Quaker State 0W-20 Ultradurability. Not saying its any better but I have in in my '18
 

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I think your oil consumption issues might be from doing 6-7K Oil Change Intervals OCI. I bet the previous owner did the same, or might have gone over a few. these issues are caused by not changing the oil frequently enough. the damage is done. just prevent any more my more frequent changes. remember that this also means that exhaust gases from combustion and carbon is being also pushed in to the oil, reducing the service life of the oil.
Two things:

1) This might be due to well-documented issues regarding excess oil consumption for these vehicles rather than maintenance issues. This problem is still going on, BTW, but currently only affects the 2.5L/manual transmission models (my 2018 Forester, purchased brand new, uses 1 qt of oil in ~2400 miles).

2) Oil consumption due to the oil rings failing to properly remove excess oil from the cylinder walls will cause some of the oil to be burned, but if the compression rings are working properly they will still prevent excess exhaust gas contamination of the oil. In such cases the oil use and contamination issues are not connected. One could also argue that due to the oil loss (and, hopefully, replacement) that the oil in the crankcase is partially renewed via the periodic addition of new engine oil between oil changes.

Just my 2 cents (equivalent to 1.5 cents due to inflation...)
 

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Two things:

1) This might be due to well-documented issues regarding excess oil consumption for these vehicles rather than maintenance issues. This problem is still going on, BTW, but currently only affects the 2.5L/manual transmission models (my 2018 Forester, purchased brand new, uses 1 qt of oil in ~2400 miles).

2) Oil consumption due to the oil rings failing to properly remove excess oil from the cylinder walls will cause some of the oil to be burned, but if the compression rings are working properly they will still prevent excess exhaust gas contamination of the oil. In such cases the oil use and contamination issues are not connected. One could also argue that due to the oil loss (and, hopefully, replacement) that the oil in the crankcase is partially renewed via the periodic addition of new engine oil between oil changes.

Just my 2 cents (equivalent to 1.5 cents due to inflation...)

Great input. i agree with you, if you add a qt every 2K miles by the time you hit 6Kmile you have done 3/5ths of an oil change.

I actually know of a guy that had an truck that burnt oil and he had to top off the oil level every two weeks. he would drain the oil maybe twice a year, and change the oil filter every 4k miles. all this guy did was just add oil. that 13 year old truck ran for another 5 more years. please take this example lightly. im not the type of person to do that. all im saying is that i have seen this theory utilized in the real world.
 

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Just went on a 4,100+ mile trip over Christmas. 2007 FXT, sitting at 114k. Ran it between 70 and 85 mph almost the entire trip which equates to 3k - 4.5k rpms, and it didn't burn any oil. Saw a guy at an Oreilly's in Gonzales Texas. I stopped to get a quart of oil to have on hand in case it was needed. Probably should've got one before driving 1,600 miles up to that point, but I got one nonetheless. It's still in the back of the car. Anyhow, he had a 2011 N/A and listening to his story made me glad to have a non-oil-burning engine. He buys oil by the gallon because it uses so much. The dealer has replaced head gaskets, and lots of engine work to try and fix the consumption to no avail. He said he'll be glad when he can get out from under the lease.

My application runs 5w40. The PO used it and he enjoyed the car, didn't baby it at all. I wonder if break-in procedures matter? I think they do to get everything seated properly, but I also believe using oil that's too thin will just burn off. I feel for all of you that have to deal with bad oil consumption. It would drive me nuts because I can't stand a car that burns, uses, or drips oil.

On a side note, completely off topic, but the cheapest gas we got was $2.21 for 93 octane. The car really likes 93 octane. The most expensive was $4.69 for 91.
 
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