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Premium Member
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69 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've been back and forth on whether to do a swap or NA build on my 2000 Forester and well, I'll be doing a build.

Why? For something fun to do. I don't need goobs of power as this car is my daily driver and I figure perhaps I'll learn some things and be able to pass some info along that'll help someone else out.

Hasn't this been done before? Sure many times but there are always new products coming out. Also, have you ever tried to wade through all the BS on nasioc or other sites to try to get real answers? My goal is to keep things straight forward here.

Whats the plan? Well here's the plan.

My heads are leaking oil and if I'm replacing head gaskets I'm going to do cams. I have a set of delta cams I picked up from a RS owner that never installed them.

Here is what I know about the delta cams. I called Delta and they claimed they would have to see the stock cams to tell me what the grind would be but said that the name for the grind is "2000" and "200" one for the right and one for the left cam. I don't know which is which.

The specs that came with the cams looked like this:

intake duration> 198.7, lift> .357
exhaust duration> 198.4, lift> .356

Here are the specs for cobb street performer as a comparision
SOHC Cam Specs
Duration @ 0.050" 211 degrees
Intake Lift 0.410"
Exhaust Lift 0.350

The next step will be full exhuast. I purchased a full rallitek exhuast, the whole deal. See rallitek.com or rallitekforums.com for info.

I'll also installing PP6 which is piggyback engine management also offered by rallitek but I got mine from the seller of the cams.

I know very very little about engine management but Sean at Rallitek sent me some maps to start with so I'm hoping it goes well.

Some side notes. While doing this I plan on replacing my front o2 sensor, fuel filter, and adding a lightweight crank pulley. I have a DIY intake.

One of my main concerns is passing PA OBD emissions. I had my car inspected this week before the mods so that I have a good amount of time to work things out before next inspection time. The rallitek exhaust doesn't have a cat but they will be offering one in the next few months, just food for thought.

The last real argument is cost vs swap. If anyone wants to get into this i'd be more then happy to talk about that to. I had a salvage 05 wrx but sold it so I have a pretty good idea of all the costs.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. I'll keep updating as things progress.
 

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'03 XS MT PSM
2015 Ford Focus ST
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2,371 Posts
you don't have to worry about PA emissions if you take it to the right shop. Send a PM to Petty. He takes his STi to a shop on Rt. 8 for the same inspection reasons. ;)
 

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scarred from battle
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730 Posts
I've got a crank pulley for sale, if you're intersted... shoot me a PM.

I have a friend who did a Full N/A build on an '02 Outback Sport. If you're interested, i can PM you his NASIOC info, and you can ask him some questions.

he bought an engine that already had the cams and upgraded valves/springs installed, and swapped it in.

he's got intake, the engine build, headers, a hi-flow cat, and a catback exhaust. Also has a lightweight flywheel (I think it's a 14#). No engine management AFAIK and I'd guess he's making about 200 to the wheels. I imagine that could be raised another 10-15HP with a good tune.

One thing - i think with a lightened crank pulley AND a lightened flywheel, you'll run into some issues.
 

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Mr. April 2008, Image Master
2005 X
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1,325 Posts
Killer a guinea pig! :lol:

I'm on the same page as you are. Thought about a swap and it's just going to build to much power. Power you'll never be able to take full advantage of unless your on the freeway, or going in a straight line.
For an everyday driver your on the right road. The NA forester with good suspension and a strong motor is unbeatable.
Your plan is right on. However I'd do a set of the cobb heads while undertaking such an operation. Maybe even some pistons, and rings. it just depends on how involved you wanna get while the motor is out.
Lastly this is just my .02 but I'd stay away from the home made intake. They work but not as well as one that's been built specifically for your car. Turbulance can hurt you in the long run, not to mention the whole high temperature and PVC pipe thing..

BTW, have you done anything to your forester yet. Anything like suspension, brakes, tranny? It's a good idea to be able to turn and stop before going fast...?
 

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Premium Member
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69 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Wraith-- I saw your posts and that is what prompted me to make a separate NA build thread. I thought about pistons etc but thats just too expensive and involved in my opinion. I'm hoping to do all this in a long weekend. A swap would have taken longer and that's part of the reason I didn't go that route.

I don't plan on doing the flywheel as I know it may lead to misfire codes and difficult daily driving.

I don't have a MAF so for an intake I left the airbox and just have a pipe running from the airbox to the fender wall. I just can't justify spending any more money on an intake at this point.

As for suspension I purchased an 05 Saab 92x suspension on nasioc. I did this for a couple of reasons. Mostly because I wanted to get to the bottom of the "Saab improved the wrx suspension debate". I the end the saab suspension and wrx suspension were exactly the same. I also have front endlinks, rear endlinks, and RSB.

I upgraded my pads and rotors but bigger brakes will be coming.
 

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Mr. April 2008, Image Master
2005 X
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1,325 Posts
Nicey! I understand what you mean about cost and time but if you wanna make the 200whp numbers you'll need to do the pistons, rings, conecting rods, springs, valves... All of that krap. Or at least that's what I keep reading over and over and over... I don't care I'm still going to pick up a new 2.5 block and build the living chit outta it! It'll be nice to have a "reliable" daily driver race SUV. :twisted:

Whats the deal with the 92x susp? I had no idea that it fixed anything. Not that I've done any research on it. I just kinda assumed it was the same. Are the struts different? Is there any difference in the control arm, or other suspension bits?

As for an intake, since you don't have a MAF there are some real nice CHEAP intakes for you.

All-n-all it sounds like you've done some planning, and have a good start on your project. And I'm jealous as hell! :evil:
 

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Premium Member
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69 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
There is no difference between the saab suspension and the wrx one. There was lots of speculation when the 92x came out becuase the suspension "felt" better then previous wrx suspension so said all the "journalists". What I believe happened is subaru changed the spring rates in 05 and saab/gm took credit for it. Parts are all the same.
 

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Registered
2005 Legacy GT
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3,679 Posts
Sounds like come nice plans you guys got. I'm thinking of something similar for my forester. Hopefully when I'm done, power wise, I will have: Injen CAI, Stromung headerback exhaust (need to install midpipe and HFcat, in boxes now), TWE SOHC cams, a crank pulley, and a PP6 tune. That's about as far as I will take the EJ25, without breaking the bank too much.

Interested to see the progress of rsk135 and The Wraiths' subies...
How sleeper would an n/a forester torque monster be?
 

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Premium Member
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69 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Update Time:
No update. I still haven't received any of the parts from rallitek as of yet. I was also planning on datalogging with the PP6 once that was install to get some stock logs to compare to.

In the mean time I've been doing some logging with the Tari Racing Software. Anyone else using this and wanna compare notes?

Should have all the parts next week. I hope the boss doesn't have plans for next weekend 'cause I'll be busy.
 

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Asphalt Surfers Unlimited
2004 Forester XT
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742 Posts
The Wraith said:
Your plan is right on. However I'd do a set of the cobb heads while undertaking such an operation. Maybe even some pistons, and rings. it just depends on how involved you wanna get while the motor is out.
Head work is a good call but Cobb doesn't have a great deal of expertise in that area. They don't make any of their own products.


A better suggestion for internals and head work on the NA motors would be TechWorks Engineering in Canada - www.techworkseng.com

A local machine shop would probably do a good job for him, too... depends on their level of expertise.
 

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Mr. April 2008, Image Master
2005 X
Joined
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1,325 Posts
Porter said:
Head work is a good call but Cobb doesn't have a great deal of expertise in that area. They don't make any of their own products.


A better suggestion for internals and head work on the NA motors would be TechWorks Engineering in Canada - www.techworkseng.com

A local machine shop would probably do a good job for him, too... depends on their level of expertise.
Ya, I just think it's nice for someone who dosen't know much, or who just wants to pull it off the shelf and put it on that ( http://cobbtuning.com/impreza/enginehead.html ) is nice to be able to get. And that the parts are matched, dynod, and proven to work well together is nice.
If yu wanna be Jonny Joe Racer then definatly do alot of research, find the best people, and build a monster! :twisted:
 

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Premium Member
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69 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
No monster here, just a daily driver and a hobby.

However I'm already thinking the next project will be a porscharu. Anybody have a 912 or 911 targa rolling chassis?
 

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Asphalt Surfers Unlimited
2004 Forester XT
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742 Posts
rsk135 said:
No monster here, just a daily driver and a hobby.

However I'm already thinking the next project will be a porscharu. Anybody have a 912 or 911 targa rolling chassis?
You need to talk to Steve Drabant in Atlanta. He is one of the pioneers of the Porscharu. He has an EJ18 in his '68 912, runs like a scalded dog. He's been involved in a number of similar projects regionally, including currently an STi motor going into a '72 911 widebody.

He's SteveD on NASIOC, drop him a PM. :)
 

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I Heart Beer
2000 Forester L
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714 Posts
any updates on the build.
oh and about the lightweight flywheel, i have a ACT 14 lb lightweight and it doesn't really loose anydrivability nor is it that hard in traffic like everyone speculates. i also have a act street clutch and the pedal stiffness is a little trickier in traffic and it can be a little tiring.
and the thing about the lightweight flywheel and lightweight crank pully throwing CEL's i haven't had any problems thus far and i think it mostly has caused problems with lighter than 14lb or so flywheels (mostly the 9 lb fidanza and the like) and it also has been known to cause more problems or the forced induction crowd.
anyway. i look forward to your build and i have been waiting for someone to do this to a forester. i know wraith has been wanting to build a NA torque monster and it'd be cool if you both went a little different directions to see what really works and where the most power can be had, good luck with the builds and keep us updated ;)
 

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Premium Member
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69 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Just got all my parts this week and only received the correct wiring harness for the PP6 on Friday. I'm hoping to get the PP6 in this week and run it with a stock configuration for a week or so and then do the cams and exhaust and run a different map.
Flywheel was out of my budget and I didn't want any misfire issues. I do think you are right to stay with the 14 pounder.
 

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Premium Member
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69 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Step one done:

PowerPerfect 6 installed. Will be testing this week. Stay tuned for details...
 

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Premium Member
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Discussion Starter #20
First off I don't have an awd dyno anywhere near, that I know of, so all of my opinions on mods come from the seat dyno and datalog info.

I drove and datalogged on the way to work and didn't really notice anything.

Last week I switch to 91 octane over 87 with no mods and datalogged. Note that I did reset my ECU when I switched. The log showed that within 18 min of driving my car had learned short term fuel trims for the new octane. From the looks of things it was pulling out just a little bit more fuel in open loop over 87, which makes sense. Closed loop was running rich with AFRs from 10 to 11.5 for the most part. All in all the ecu seemed to be doing well.

Now with PP6 the map I am running is supposed to lean out my closed loop, which is seems to do a little, I'm seeing slightly higher AFRs but only slightly and there is no performance gain at this point.

Tonight I'm going to put a stock map, basically all zeros on the map and datalog my trip to work tomorrow. Then I need to compare the data, which is pretty tedious. Anyone have any suggestions?
 
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