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2014 Forester XT CVT
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I installed the cusco's FSB (26mm) last weekend in 14 FXT.
I have also installed STI's RSB (19mm) in my FXT two months ago.

The cornering is noticeably better.
However, I can feel that the front became "heavy" (my feeling), which makes the steering feels not as precise (still feeling) as before, i.e. a enlarged(still feeling) latency between your turning the wheel and the car's turning.

With stock FSB, I did not notice this very much (or not as noticeable). But after changing to a stiffer FSB, since the front feels more heavier, this effect seems to be more apparent.

So, is there any way to correct this? (I know one way to do is to switch back to the stock FSB).
 

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2014 Forester 2.0XT CVT
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Increasing front roll stiffness yields more understeer, which decreases front end responsiveness. Period.

My car understeers stock. If I were to change suspension I would just stiffen the rear.

You might get more steering feel back if you went with a stiffer sidewall tire, but you won't get rid of the introduced understeer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Increasing front roll stiffness yields more understeer, which decreases front end responsiveness. Period.

My car understeers stock. If I were to change suspension I would just stiffen the rear.

You might get more steering feel back if you went with a stiffer sidewall tire, but you won't get rid of the introduced understeer.
So, you mean to get a stiffer RSB will help?
 

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2017 VW Golf SportWagen 5MT
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Here come the understeer alerters lol

I think a lower profile tire is what will yeild improvement now. Play with the tire pressure, not much else you can do. Getting the car lower to the ground, dampers with better compression/damping, springs of higher rates are all options. Could also look into getting more caster and negative camber in the front.

Stan
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Here come the understeer alerters lol

I think a lower profile tire is what will yeild improvement now. Play with the tire pressure, not much else you can do. Getting the car lower to the ground, dampers with better compression/damping, springs of higher rates are all options.

Stan
Which way is the easiest or cheapest way (other than change back to stock FSB, But I do like the solid feel after upgrade) to cure the understeering?

I noticed that cusco's RSB is 20mm which is used to be coupled with their 26mm FSB. Do you think increase the size (from 19mm to 20mm) will help?
Or, should I get a 22mm white line bar?
 

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2017 VW Golf SportWagen 5MT
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You probably can't fully cure a tendency for understeering in an AWD Subaru. You can raise the limits though, since this is a street car you will rarely be driving it at the limit.

I guess the definition of steering feel may be different for people, but I think I know where you are coming from and I've upgraded front bars on a few cars and understand what you are doing. I guess it depends on your purpose for the car, budget and your commitment to improving it's handling abilities. Better tires will always help handling, braking and steering feel, so will lighter wheels. Steering bushing upgrade may help a bit, but probably not a lot. You've started to improve the car's setup and are more aware of the weak points now, which week point you want to address will depend on things.

You could always downgrade back to the stock bar, but that would be a step backwards IMO.

Stan
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
You probably can't fully cure a tendency for understeering in an AWD Subaru. You can raise the limits though, since this is a street car you will rarely be driving it at the limit.

I guess the definition of steering feel may be different for people, but I think I know where you are coming from and I've upgraded front bars on a few cars and understand what you are doing. I guess it depends on your purpose for the car, budget and your commitment to improving it's handling abilities. Better tires will always help handling, braking and steering feel, so will lighter wheels. Steering bushing upgrade may help a bit, but probably not a lot. You've started to improve the car's setup and are more aware of the weak points now, which week point you want to address will depend on things.

You could always downgrade back to the stock bar, but that would be a step backwards IMO.

Stan
Basically, I want to get back (or close to ) the steering feeling of stock FSB + 19mm STI RSB, but with more solid feel.

So, my question is even I increase the RSB to 22 mm, the understeering feel will still be there ?
 

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2017 VW Golf SportWagen 5MT
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People on this forum throw around "understeering" a lot -- when is the car understeering, when you are coming into a corner too fast on a wet/icy road? Understeer is when your car looses traction in the front and is unable to hold the turning line you are asking it to steer through, you should not be understeering in normal driving conditions. You've only increased the bar by 2mm and your rear bar isn't stock, you have not done anything too crazy to upset the original setup.

You could go to a larger rear bar, it may compliment your 26mm front bar better. But you aren't really fixing anything in the front by doing that, if there are benefits they will be indirect. For better steering feel, you'd want to do things like get a better steering rack with tighter feel and righter turning radius, lower profile tires, maybe get the center of gravity down a bit. For better weight transfer and grip, you'd play with bars of different sizes. Both would benefit from a better damper and stiffer spring.

I don't know the SH platrofm, but a larger rear bar could be a good logical next step. Maybe a 20mm adjustable one that you could set to be stiffer, maybe even a 22mm. At some point, there is only so much you could cure with bars and you have to consider limitations of damper/spring. I go for the shocks first, personally.

Stan
 
2010 Forester 4EAT
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Which way is the easiest or cheapest way (other than change back to stock FSB, But I do like the solid feel after upgrade) to cure the understeering?

I noticed that cusco's RSB is 20mm which is used to be coupled with their 26mm FSB. Do you think increase the size (from 19mm to 20mm) will help?
Or, should I get a 22mm white line bar?
whiteline steering rack bushings and white line anti lift kit are going to be my next upgrades. I've got kartboy front and rear end links, 19mm rear sti bar and whiteline 22mm non adjustable front sway bar and the steering feels much more responsive with the wrx struts, shocks, and springs it feels like it has cat like reflexes and is very comfortable. I just feel that adding the steering rack bushings and anti lift kit will cut down on the turning radius or something like that and make the steering even more responsive.

Sent from my mind using ninjutsu telepathy
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
People on this forum throw around "understeering" a lot -- when is the car understeering, when you are coming into a corner too fast on a wet/icy road? Understeer is when your car looses traction in the front and is unable to hold the turning line you are asking it to steer through, you should not be understeering in normal driving conditions. You've only increased the bar by 2mm and your rear bar isn't stock, you have not done anything too crazy to upset the original setup.

You could go to a larger rear bar, it may compliment your 26mm front bar better. But you aren't really fixing anything in the front by doing that, if there are benefits they will be indirect. For better steering feel, you'd want to do things like get a better steering rack with tighter feel and righter turning radius, lower profile tires, maybe get the center of gravity down a bit. For better weight transfer and grip, you'd play with bars of different sizes. Both would benefit from a better damper and stiffer spring.

I don't know the SH platrofm, but a larger rear bar could be a good logical next step. Maybe a 20mm adjustable one that you could set to be stiffer, maybe even a 22mm. At some point, there is only so much you could cure with bars and you have to consider limitations of damper/spring. I go for the shocks first, personally.

Stan
Maybe you are right. The "heavy" nose effect from the bigger FSB can not be cured without all the possible changes you mentioned.

However, I really do not want to give up forester's "light" and agile feeling.
So, maybe I should switch back to the stock FSB and drive for a while and decide which direction to go.
 

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2017 VW Golf SportWagen 5MT
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Heavy nose feeling is most likely because the nose is heavy, you are just feeling it more now. Stock bar is 24mm, right? You didn't go that much larger. Do you have less traction in the front now vs. stock bar given same conditions? Or, is the steering just feeling heavier?

Stan
 

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2017 Subaru Forester XT CVT
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Also a newbie to Subaru. Where did you find the FSB and which STI RSB is the one that fits a 14 XT.
Thanks:woohoo:
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Heavy nose feeling is most likely because the nose is heavy, you are just feeling it more now. Stock bar is 24mm, right? You didn't go that much larger. Do you have less traction in the front now vs. stock bar given same conditions? Or, is the steering just feeling heavier?

Stan
The steering just feel heavier, which (I feel) makes the steering a little more vague or less responsive.
Maybe I am too sensitive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Also a newbie to Subaru. Where did you find the FSB and which STI RSB is the one that fits a 14 XT.
Thanks:woohoo:
I bought FSB from one of cusco's dealer.
STI RSB from subaru dealer (it is actually 12 STI RSB).

But, you can wait.
Maybe I will sell one of them here.
Which one do you like :)
 

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Are upgraded end links available for the front yet? I know for my old impreza, fsb and end link upgrade together felt amazing, fantastic turnin. When I had to swap back to stock end links after the aftermarket ones seized up on me, the feel was noticeably worse. Even before looking at steering rack bushings maybe look at front end links?

The stock ones on the impreza were pillowball mounts, the aftermarket ones I had were solid with polyurethane bushings, meaning the fsb took effect immediately on turnin, rather than having to wait for the pillowballs to hit their stops first.
 

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Increasing front roll stiffness yields more understeer, which decreases front end responsiveness. Period.

My car understeers stock. If I were to change suspension I would just stiffen the rear.

You might get more steering feel back if you went with a stiffer sidewall tire, but you won't get rid of the introduced understeer.
It's a little more complicated than that. If you're talking about at the limit grip, sure an overly stiff front will understeer, but on our macpherson front geometry I've learned that a stiffer front will both help the feel on turnin, as well as increase ultimate cornering grip up to a point because it prevents the front from compressing as much during cornering load, which can lead to the tire becoming cambered the wrong way. It's similar to why you don't want to overly lower your car as it affects the suspension geometry, so stiffer springs prevent the suspension from sinking too low into an unfavourable height.

If you really get to cornering that hard tho.....well 1 you bought the wrong car =p and 2 you can get similar benefits by just running much stiffer front springs, which you can then run a smaller front bar and maintain your suspension independence a bit better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Are upgraded end links available for the front yet? I know for my old impreza, fsb and end link upgrade together felt amazing, fantastic turnin. When I had to swap back to stock end links after the aftermarket ones seized up on me, the feel was noticeably worse. Even before looking at steering rack bushings maybe look at front end links?

The stock ones on the impreza were pillowball mounts, the aftermarket ones I had were solid with polyurethane bushings, meaning the fsb took effect immediately on turnin, rather than having to wait for the pillowballs to hit their stops first.
Sorry, I can not answer your question. because cusco's dealer installed the FSB for me and I was playing with their Doberman dog. :-(. Maybe I need to ask cusco for more information.
 

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It's a little more complicated than that. If you're talking about at the limit grip, sure an overly stiff front will understeer, but on our macpherson front geometry I've learned that a stiffer front will both help the feel on turnin, as well as increase ultimate cornering grip up to a point because it prevents the front from compressing as much during cornering load, which can lead to the tire becoming cambered the wrong way. It's similar to why you don't want to overly lower your car as it affects the suspension geometry, so stiffer springs prevent the suspension from sinking too low into an unfavourable height.

If you really get to cornering that hard tho.....well 1 you bought the wrong car =p and 2 you can get similar benefits by just running much stiffer front springs, which you can then run a smaller front bar and maintain your suspension independence a bit better.
That's what I mean. You could add more negative camber to the front, too.

Stan
 

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Normally people say the steering is too light. If you said it got heavier that is normally considered as good thing.

Stiffer rear swaybar or spring would make the car rotate faster if that is what you like. Adding stiffer front swaybar on strut suspension reduce the tendency of the front suspension to go to positive camber which should result in less tendency for front tires to lose grip or understeer.
 
2010 Forester 4EAT
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Are upgraded end links available for the front yet? I know for my old impreza, fsb and end link upgrade together felt amazing, fantastic turnin. When I had to swap back to stock end links after the aftermarket ones seized up on me, the feel was noticeably worse. Even before looking at steering rack bushings maybe look at front end links?

The stock ones on the impreza were pillowball mounts, the aftermarket ones I had were solid with polyurethane bushings, meaning the fsb took effect immediately on turnin, rather than having to wait for the pillowballs to hit their stops first.
They are for sh from kartboy.

Sent from my mind using ninjutsu telepathy
 
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