[dawgMobile]

This item was posted on Left lane
Report: 2012 Subaru Impreza lineup may include hybrid

Given that we SH'ers (and others too?) are driving modded imprezas for all practical purposes, will this really be the end of Sube at least in N/A. Personally I'm really p.o'd that the Toyota alliance is leading to hybrid over diesel. I don't want a 2wd hybrid sube. I want a 4wd diesel sube NOW! Makes me glad I got mine (miserable mpg and all) while the getting was good.

 

[good dog]

It's funny about the last part about AWD being on the "Option List" in Europe. I guess if somebody demands two wheel drive, they just put a fuse in the AWD slot and say 'here ya go'. :lol:

Let's hope for a 'miracle breakthrough' in fuel economy with the boxer engine and all other configurations.

 

[Snoshado]

Subaru sucks.

my $0.02

 

[good dog]

Subaru sucks.

my $0.02

It will affect every manufacturer not just Subaru. They all just need to get back to improving fuel economy of their priority engines like the boxer design for Subaru. Loks like another price increase in on the way.

 

[Maphusio]

I'd much rather see their "secret" battery technology result in battery Subi's than hybrids. Understand when I say battery powered, I mean it will have some power and wont be a limp go-cart. I don't feel going green should mean sacrificing.

 

[Real Lyte]

I'd much rather see their "secret" battery technology result in battery Subi's than hybrids. Understand when I say battery powered, I mean it will have some power and wont be a limp go-cart. I don't feel going green should mean sacrificing.

Common misconception, electric motors are usually much more torqy than gas engines btw. Toyota just makes boring cars so they limited the power output.

 

[guroove]

I don't really see this as bad news, especially for subaru. They are removing standard AWD, and making it an option. It means that people can get a 2WD Subaru if they want one, opening a market for people more concerned with fuel economy and low cost. We can look forward to more fuel efficient Subarus in the future. The only thing that I don't really like is the CVT. Although, for people who are already driving automatics, it's not that big of a difference. An automatic transmission already has a very inefficient fluid driven CVT in it called a torque converter. Technology doesn't stand still, and a lot of the changes mentioned in the linked article are in a positive direction, IMO.

 

[vintage42]

... I want a 4wd diesel sube NOW! ...

It won't happen.
The 2009 proposed changes to the EPA regulations for model years 2012 to 2016 are now law, and the CO2 and MPG regulations for 2016 force diesel out of the showroom. A car the size of the Impreza or Forester will have to get 39 mpg in 2016. Diesel alone can't get there. Cars for MY 2016 are already in planning, and will be designed in 2011. Manufacturers have to switch to a whole new technological platform for these regulations. That platform will be hybrid gas-electric. And they have to begin designing it into the platform now. Subaru is not likely to bring their diesel to the USA and support it for a few years, in the face of high diesel fuel cost and low consumer demand for diesels, when diesel has no future here.

 

[vintage42]

... electric motors are usually much more torqy than gas engines...

Always more torquey. Electric motors produce peak torque when standing still - at zero rpm and zero mph.

 

[2point5awd]

So why do manufacturers pour a lot of money into making "prototype" cars like this for auto shows? I never got it when that money can go towards R&D

 

[neoshi]

they count it as R&D though because some or all of that stuff makes a production car one way or another (or reaches the scrap yard).

but yeah some of the snazzy stuff like gull wing doors that will never make production, they should really just forget about it.

 

[guylr]

It won't happen.
The 2009 proposed changes to the EPA regulations for model years 2012 to 2016 are now law, and the CO2 and MPG regulations for 2016 force diesel out of the showroom. A car the size of the Impreza or Forester will have to get 39 mpg in 2016. Diesel alone can't get there. Cars for MY 2016 are already in planning, and will be designed in 2011. Manufacturers have to switch to a whole new technological platform for these regulations. That platform will be hybrid gas-electric. And they have to begin designing it into the platform now. Subaru is not likely to bring their diesel to the USA and support it for a few years, in the face of high diesel fuel cost and low consumer demand for diesels, when diesel has no future here.

I think maybe you're being a little pessimistic about the diesels. The Euro Forester Diesels are already rated at 37 mpg combined (6.3l/100km) and 40.5 mpg (5.8l/100 km) highway so I think we can expect them to improve on that once they are mated to a CVT. That makes the diesel look like a good alternative to the standard gasoline powered NA and Turbo engines. In order to keep some of those in the lineup Subaru will need to sell a variety of models that get over the 35-39mpg CAFE average requirement. Remember CAFE is an average and every unit sold above the average will offset the gas guzzler models sold below it. I think it's the turbo gas models that are in danger. They will improve their fuel numbers over the next few years with the introduction of the new DI engines but I think they will struggle to get into the low 30's for most models. So I think a mix of hybrids with low to mid 40 mpg ratings, diesels with high 30s to low 40 mpg rating and gas engines with high 20s to low 30s rating will probably be what we wind up with by mid decade.

On the fuel price aspect. Diesel is selling for the same price as mid grade gasoline in my area so that's not too much of a penalty for a rather large fuel economy advantage over the gas models. Diesel fuel prices are expected to come down somewhat as more refining capacity for ULSD comes on line too.

Will we see hybrid Subarus? Yeah, I think so and I think they will be sold along side the Diesel and gas models.

 

[abacall]

^^No way we are getting Diesel model here. Subaru already announced they are diverting diesel R&D toward a hybrid model. It's not the high price, but the volatility of the price as well as very low demand.
I'm totally excited for these new standards. Bring it on, innovation is sorely needed. Same thing happened in the 70s when gas prices soared. As a result big V8s were forced out and we got some great 4s and 6s from it. We need the auto industry to really roll their sleeves up and give us what we want, power and economy. It can be done.

 

[Real Lyte]

^^No way we are getting Diesel model here. Subaru already announced they are diverting diesel R&D toward a hybrid model. It's not the high price, but the volatility of the price as well as very low demand.
I'm totally excited for these new standards. Bring it on, innovation is sorely needed. Same thing happened in the 70s when gas prices soared. As a result big V8s were forced out and we got some great 4s and 6s from it. We need the auto industry to really roll their sleeves up and give us what we want, power and economy. It can be done.

Well said, +1.

 

[vintage42]

I think maybe you're being a little pessimistic about the diesels. The Euro Forester Diesels are already rated at 37 mpg ...

On Euro diesel. They would have to be modified to use US diesel. But the real problem is they can't meet 2016 US C02 standards.
So Subaru is not going to bring in and support diesels for just a few years. Diesel is doomed here. The future is hybrid.

... Will we see hybrid Subarus? Yeah, I think so and I think they will be sold along side the Diesel and gas models.

Subaru cannot afford that. Diesel will not happen, gas will be phased out as hybrid is phased in.

 

[neoshi]

^That's right. It's not the MPG that's the problem, it's emissions. Pretty much any diesel that's already here was passed before the new standards. Any new diesel trying in the last 3 or 4 years has probably been rejected or is being rejected at this moment. Even though new clean diesels are much better than the old dirty stuff, it's still not clean enough by the new standards.

 

[vintage42]

... It's not the MPG that's the problem, it's emissions. ...

MPG is also a problem for diesels after 2016. Pure diesel passenger vehicles are not going to be able to meet the requirements with any performance.

 

[neoshi]

That's true, though they are getting very close. And certainly for the folks who have already gotten their diesels into this country, they could certainly pursue a hybrid diesel eh?

Say, the 2016 MPG requirement.. did it finally land at 35.5? 39, 37, and 35 kept getting tossed around and I think it settled at 35.5, but I'm not sure.

 

[guylr]

Subaru cannot afford that. Diesel will not happen, gas will be phased out as hybrid is phased in.

Please explain how gas will be phased out as hybrids come in. Hybrids have gasoline powered engines. If its pure battery plug in electric you're talking about ok, but you don't have a "hybrid" without without the ICE to go with the electric motor. Keeping that in mind a diesel/electric hybrid sounds like a winner to me.

 

[guylr]

On Euro diesel. They would have to be modified to use US diesel. But the real problem is they can't meet 2016 US C02 standards.
So Subaru is not going to bring in and support diesels for just a few years. Diesel is doomed here. The future is hybrid.

By December 2010 all road diesel fuel sold in North America will be ULSD, the same as sold in Europe. In reality it already is but the phase in deadline comes this Fall which coincidentally will likely be when Subaru announces its diesel models here.

The 2016 standard is 250 grams per mile. The current Euro Diesel Forester is at 270g/mi. The Diesel Impreza is at 245g/mi right now! That's much lower than the gas models BTW-2.5i Outback is 320g/mi and 3.6R is a whopping 374g/mi. With improvements in Diesel fuel economy that doesn't seem to be that tough of a goal to reach for the Forester with five more years of development. Now particulates and NOx might still be a problem however.

Why so much doom and gloom about Diesel? It's the gas models that are facing the axe.

Please read up on Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel fuel here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel