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2005 Forester XT 4EAT
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well, for months now I've been chasing a low power/low fuel economy issue. I was plagued with low fuel mileage 12 -13mpg, inability to run much timing, low track times, and more recently oil consumption. Never blew smoke, or showed any blatant signs of a blown ring, most of my issues were believed to be tune related, but that wasn't the case when my compression test came back 145, 128, 150, 145.

UPDATE: Even though my compression test results were not terrible, here's what cylinder 2 actually looked like as of 8/16/10:



The cylinder was filled with oil and the piston is most likely cracked.

As of now I'm looking into built motors and mighty turbo's. I'm ideally looking for a motor that will be good for very spirited daily driving that can reliably handle between 400 & 500whp. I have a short 7 mile drive to work every day, but i drive a bunch outside of that since i hate riding shotgun with anyone thanks to an accident i was in in high school. I also take frequent trips to PA, upstate NY, and occasionally Florida. I also occasionally tow my ATV and maybe once or twice a year a pontoon boat also rarely I'll take the car to the drag strip. I probably put about 20,000 mixed miles on the car a year. I want something that'll last me at least a few years.

I've done a fair amount of research and it seems that pre-built short blocks are the way to go for best reliability & simplicity. I know many people say that a totally custom hand built motor is the way to go, but I feel there's too many variables that can go wrong. Depending on who builds the motors, with what components they choose there's a mess of variables that could go wrong and have me back in the same position in 10,000 miles.

With a pre-built block I feel there's greater chance of having a reliable motor, because even though it may not be custom built by hand, there was probably a lot more time into the design of something that will be, for lack of a better term, "Mass Produced". The motors may be turned out quicker, but depending on the company they should be put together with as much care, also all the components were designed to work well together in a brand new short block, as apposed to a custom motor where components are chosen somewhat randomly based on their attributes, and are built into a used block to whatever the builders specs and tolerances may be.

The motor I'm leaning toward right now is a rallispec street block for a reasonable $3k which from what I've read on nasioc has an excellent reputation, all reviews i found were positive, and the block is rated near 600hp with the OEM block itself becoming the weak link in the chain. Anything that can handle more power requires sleeving and is far too expensive. I may however spring for ceramic coated crowns as a little added insurance. Rallispecs block seems to be the best balance between OEM reliability/drivability with insurance for more extreme power levels. Also rallispec is close enough to home that i can pay them a visit should i have any problems. If anyone has any other recommendations I would definitely like to hear them.

Update: I Did end up purchasing a Rallispec Block, Pics:





That being said about the block I'm looking into, odds are I'm going to recycle my existing heads, Area1320 in PA will be doing the swap for me as they said it can be done within a week, and their labor rates are very reasonable and Ryan has done enough work for me to know my car pretty well. Included in their short block swap costs is a resurfacing/inspection of the heads.

Update: I purchased new Kelford 264/264 cams, which turned into also buying another set of heads that i had refurbished and reassmembled with bigger valves, titanium springs, and retainers.

Update 12-27-10: Machineworld NY totally botched the heads and they were so out of spec the journals and cams were destroyed in the heads pictured below, will get pics of the destroyed cams and journals soon




I'm very lucky something convinced me to go with new cams and heads because when my old motor was torn down & inspected, my old heads were also shot, the cams & journals were scored up pretty bad, most likely from metal shavings from the rings and pistons getting in there.

Other parts I'm looking to replace will be the oil pump, and possibly the water pump. I don't know what brand of each i should go with yet, and I don't know if there's anything else i should look to replace while the motor's out.

Lastly with a goal of 400whp+ on pump gas, the turbo I pick is going to be very important. Currently I have a TD06-20G 8cm² it's an OK turbo, but it can't touch the whp levels I'm looking to reach, I know some people will recommend meth or rotated, but meth is something I just don't wanna have to worry about since this is a daily driver, and rotated is going to be out of my price range as well as more complex then I'd like to be especially while staying with a TMIC.

Initially i was looking into a Dom 4 XT-R IWG, but after calling blouch they said a Dom 4 would be too laggy and not a good setup for daily driving. The blouch rep. recommended a Dom 3 XT-R, and i was set on that, but I called my tuner at EFI logics to see if he had any recommendations. They pointed me toward ATP 3076R based on their experience with them. I've looked around on nasioc and it seems that the ATP3076R and Dom 3 are pretty evenly matched. I would probably be running around 23psi, and i really don't know which way to go, EFI logics can get me ATP turbo's at a pretty good discount so I'm really leaning that way. I know BAC5.2 and some other members on the forums know their turbo's real well and understand the physics behind them, so if any of you guys read this feel free to chime in.

Update: Decided on an ATP stock location 35R IWG. The turbo is beautiful with very high build quaility & according to ryan @ Area1320, it actually fit in there perfectly. However ATP's service sucks, they sent me a messed up fitting and really refused to help me out and send me a new one, so i had to buy one and have it next day aired from cali because it's holding up my whole build since it's the turbo oil fitting.



As I progress through this expensive ordeal I'll try and post pictures and progress of everything, and of course at the end I'll post dyno numbers and (maybe more importantly) track numbers.

I apologize for any poor grammar or misspellings, I wrote this up quick and I'll edit and correct things as the thread progresses.
 

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2008 FSXT M/T
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the rallispec block is great, id go that route! as far as turbo, id lean towards the atp30r. your 20g will be good in the meantime if you cant make up your mind.
 

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2001 Forester
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1,140 Posts
GT35R!! haha sorry I don't really have anything to contribute. Can't wait to see how this turns out though!
 

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2004 Subaru FXT MT
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Since you don't race, and 400whp is your target, I'm going to push you toward the ATP GT3071R.

Personally, I don't understand why so many lean toward the 3076. I realize its worth 30-40 more hp at the top end compared to the 3071, but the 3071 is worth 30-50 more in the mid range. If you are living from 3-5k, you will be more happy with the 3071.

As I'm seeing more results on the 10cm housings, I'm not so sure anymore that they are helping.

Back to the racing thing. If you aren't racing, why go for a big turbo anyway? With a properly supported VF39/43/48, you have a 12 second car, which is fast enough to beat just about most anything you see on the street stop light to stop light. There are guys with 2.5L VF's running 11's now. I know that is race talk, but its to demonstrate that you certainly don't need a big turbo to satisfy your daily driving tom-foolery...

As for blocks, the only advice I have for you is to make sure the piston is out of the right alloy. I lean toward 4032. Its not quite as strong as 2618, but you can run tighter clearances. That will lead you toward a longer lasting, more efficient motor. If it was a race motor that you are pushing 10/10th's out of, certainly go for the 2618...
 

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2005 Forester XT 4EAT
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Discussion Starter #5
the rallispec block is great, id go that route! as far as turbo, id lean towards the atp30r. your 20g will be good in the meantime if you cant make up your mind.
Well, If the 30R is the rotated i don't wanna mess with that. It's also my understanding that the 3076R is a stock location 30R which seems like what i want.

Since you don't race, and 400whp is your target, I'm going to push you toward the ATP GT3071R.

Personally, I don't understand why so many lean toward the 3076. I realize its worth 30-40 more hp at the top end compared to the 3071, but the 3071 is worth 30-50 more in the mid range. If you are living from 3-5k, you will be more happy with the 3071.

As I'm seeing more results on the 10cm housings, I'm not so sure anymore that they are helping.

Back to the racing thing. If you aren't racing, why go for a big turbo anyway? With a properly supported VF39/43/48, you have a 12 second car, which is fast enough to beat just about most anything you see on the street stop light to stop light. There are guys with 2.5L VF's running 11's now. I know that is race talk, but its to demonstrate that you certainly don't need a big turbo to satisfy your daily driving tom-foolery...

As for blocks, the only advice I have for you is to make sure the piston is out of the right alloy. I lean toward 4032. Its not quite as strong as 2618, but you can run tighter clearances. That will lead you toward a longer lasting, more efficient motor. If it was a race motor that you are pushing 10/10th's out of, certainly go for the 2618...
Well, i'm leaning toward bigger because I will take the car to the drag strip occasionaly, i wanna see hopefully mid 11's. Also you gotta keep in mind that with my 4eat, when i go full throttle & the 4eat shifts into the next gear the RPMS only drop to about 4k, also when i'm cruising on the highway and stomp it the car kicks down to the top of 2nd so top end is important to me :biggrin:. Also i'll be honest, I wanna have the baddest forester in all the tristate :evilatyou:.

As for the pistons I'm pretty sure they're gonna be 4032 which seems like a happy medium for reliability/efficiency and power.
 

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'09 STI
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4,129 Posts
20K miles a year plus towing a boat? Think of all the reliability problems you've had with just the 20G and I think the smartest route is to get a properly tuned 20G on a stock block and call it a day.
 

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2005 Lifted 2.5 XT 5-Speed MT Dual-Range
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The EJ255 blocks can handle the high horsepower numbers, EASILY, you just have to build it up right. My local shop (MCS Motorsports) builds the block to "handle" 700hp, so it can run 400-500hp reliably. Honed used block, new crank, hardened rods and forged pistons, etc. etc. They quoted me $1500 INCLUDING parts to build my block up. I would find a local Subaru guy that knows his stuff to build you a block.

Funny, because I have an EJ255 block that I was told by my local tuning shop that is the perfect candidate for a high-horsepower build. I also have the heads for it too. Send you a PM with details and such.
 

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Well, If the 30R is the rotated i don't wanna mess with that. It's also my understanding that the 3076R is a stock location 30R which seems like what i want.
the atp turbos are stock location... i think the 35r will be overkill, the 3071 or 3076 would fit the bill, i really like the ones w/ the ewg housing! if you wanted to go rotated i would have recommended a different route, either p&l or txs rotated 30r :evilatyou:
 

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2007 FSTI and X 6 MT
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The question is with the new high hp levels what else will you break? Axles, diffs, etc. I know you have a built trans but with the increased hp you will start to have failures in other areas.

Still, keep us updated. I wish I had a set to go balls out with my xt! I envy you!
 

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2004 Forester XT '06 STi 6MT
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borrowed from full-race's website:

Dyno Results:
-05 STi stock motor w/ ATP3071R stock location bolt-on turbo, internally wastegated
-APS turbo inlet pipe, TGV deletes, PE850 injectors, Cusco headers, Catted turboback, Ebay FMIC, Perrin big MAF, Cobb AP2


i'm no pro and i know full-race doesn't advertise below average dyno's on their site either...maybe the 3076 ATP is a better choice, especially if auto? the slightly higher boost onset + auto's shift range may be better matched considering the OP's application?

but i also agree with Blue Fox. i'm under the impression that the 04-05 fxt stock block can easily handle the higher power #'s if done correctly. it really is all about the tune. i'm waiting for somebody on this board to do a huge turbo build on a stock block (correctly/safely) and really see how much an 04-05 fxt block can take. and to clarify i mean an owner with a previously stock fxt who does the build themselves first attempt with good tuning and NOT crazy driving habits. see what it can take and how long it lasts. i see no reason why 400+ whp can't be achieved (with the proper supporting mods) on a solid tune, daily driven, and not abused excessively. to clarify further this is without regard to the stock driveline either, obviously that would need some upgrading/modification or a 6 speed swap to handle more safely.
 

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Well, If the 30R is the rotated i don't wanna mess with that. It's also my understanding that the 3076R is a stock location 30R which seems like what i want.



Well, i'm leaning toward bigger because I will take the car to the drag strip occasionaly, i wanna see hopefully mid 11's. Also you gotta keep in mind that with my 4eat, when i go full throttle & the 4eat shifts into the next gear the RPMS only drop to about 4k, also when i'm cruising on the highway and stomp it the car kicks down to the top of 2nd so top end is important to me :biggrin:. Also i'll be honest, I wanna have the baddest forester in all the tristate :evilatyou:.

As for the pistons I'm pretty sure they're gonna be 4032 which seems like a happy medium for reliability/efficiency and power.
I missed the 11's part:rock: Still either GT30R turbo will get you into the 11's, I would expect. If you want to ensure it, go with the GT35. Really though, your 20g should be able to get you there to. With the TD06 wheel, have you thought about getting a 7cm housing? I'm not so sure with a wheel that large, perhaps the 8cm housing isn't helping you much and perhaps hurting your spool up....
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I believe Junior is in the midst of building an XT, but 2nd baddest forester in the tristate isn't so bad either!:rock:
I can live with having the baddest automatic forester in all the tri-state :rock:

the atp turbos are stock location... i think the 35r will be overkill, the 3071 or 3076 would fit the bill, i really like the ones w/ the ewg housing! if you wanted to go rotated i would have recommended a different route, either p&l or txs rotated 30r :evilatyou:
I was poking around the ATP website again, I didn't see a stock location 30R for the subarus, i did however see a stock location 35r which has got me thinking now :icon_rolleyes:

The question is with the new high hp levels what else will you break? Axles, diffs, etc. I know you have a built trans but with the increased hp you will start to have failures in other areas.

Still, keep us updated. I wish I had a set to go balls out with my xt! I envy you!
Well, I'm gonna cross this bridge when i come to it. I'm hoping if I use my lock-up switch more often that'll help spread the stress out between the front and rear diffs and i hopefully won't have a problem.

I missed the 11's part:rock: Still either GT30R turbo will get you into the 11's, I would expect. If you want to ensure it, go with the GT35. Really though, your 20g should be able to get you there to. With the TD06 wheel, have you thought about getting a 7cm housing? I'm not so sure with a wheel that large, perhaps the 8cm housing isn't helping you much and perhaps hurting your spool up....
I've considered this, but i figure if I'm gonna take out a loan to have the motor replaced/built, i might as well upgrade the turbo to match the motor. My 20G is/was no doubt a good turbo, but i wanna go with something big & shiny and dual ball bearing with more potential.



Also for anyone that's reading this, depending on how soon i can find a loan to make this happen, I'll have my stock block, possibly heads, and 20G up for sale.
 

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Just throwing it out there randomly, but the AMS rotated 30 & 35R kits have the option to run Top-Mount or Front-Mount intercoolers... They also offer two stages of short blocks. Last time I checked, AMS knows how to build one heck of an engine.

Just throwing some info out there for your consideration, do whatever you'd like with it though.
 

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2005 Forester XT 4EAT
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Discussion Starter #15
Just throwing it out there randomly, but the AMS rotated 30 & 35R kits have the option to run Top-Mount or Front-Mount intercoolers... They also offer two stages of short blocks. Last time I checked, AMS knows how to build one heck of an engine.

Just throwing some info out there for your consideration, do whatever you'd like with it though.
Thanks for the info, looking up AMS now.
 

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Just throwing it out there randomly, but the AMS rotated 30 & 35R kits have the option to run Top-Mount or Front-Mount intercoolers... They also offer two stages of short blocks. Last time I checked, AMS knows how to build one heck of an engine.

Just throwing some info out there for your consideration, do whatever you'd like with it though.
yea for evos! unfort their subie stuff isnt really proven yet, especially considering price... their work is top notch however, but no one really uses it.

rallispec stuff is proven beyond belief. they build motors for rally cars all over the US and their cars/motors even went to the xgames. and they one of the best drivetrain expert shops around!
 

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well you are already on the right path by talking to your tuner about it. I went with a handbuilt block personally because I liked the idea of knowing who built it. If you are intent on staying stock location(which i think is silly since even a 3in inlet is still suffocating) i would check out some of the numbers on the dom3xtr. IAG has had great success on their shop car and have ridden in the car(owned by Rick the former owner of my car) and the spool is crazy fast and very fun.

I don't see why you don't even consider rotated though. A little more money but we all know that one is never satisfied with power level and with a built engine and built tranny you will eventually want more.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
well you are already on the right path by talking to your tuner about it. I went with a handbuilt block personally because I liked the idea of knowing who built it. If you are intent on staying stock location(which i think is silly since even a 3in inlet is still suffocating) i would check out some of the numbers on the dom3xtr. IAG has had great success on their shop car and have ridden in the car(owned by Rick the former owner of my car) and the spool is crazy fast and very fun.

I don't see why you don't even consider rotated though. A little more money but we all know that one is never satisfied with power level and with a built engine and built tranny you will eventually want more.
Yea i'm still a bit torn between the Dom 3 XT-R and the ATP 3076R, dyno numbers are very close, but i can get a decent discount through EFI and get the ATP for considerably less money.

As for going rotated, i know i probably should, but stock location turbos are coming along pretty well and I am tryin to save some money here and keep things simple to minimize down time.

On a side note, it seems like ever since i got my compression test results the car has gotten noticably more sluggish and hesitant to hit boost. I don't know if the compression test results made me more conciouse of it, or the compression test itself had an effect, maybe it's just the warm weather? But the car hates to push higher then 10psi in most conditions now, where as before it would only occasionaly pull that crap on the highway...
 

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Scott (thefoos) keep referencing it as a 30r. ATP doesn't list them out on their website in that fashion. They call them the 3071, 3076 and 35r.

Anyway...I'm starting to question the advantages of rotated...looking at dyno plots I just don't see the gains.

Now for my opinion. 35R is the correct sized turbo for a 2.5L that wants to run 20+ psi.

However our heads don't flow for poop so you gain nothing by going w/ a 35r.

Need evidence? Tell me why I can slap a 35r on an EVO and make boatloads of power, especially torque at 7000+ rpm. Yet on a EJ motor I won't make over 350lbft of torque at 7000rpm on pump gas w/ stock heads. Go find dyno plots for the few guys that have proper head work done, and a good set of cam's, and you'll see they make crazy amounts more torque at high rpm and thus way more HP, all on pump gas too.

My point, if you're not going to drop in the cash to do head work, then there's little to no advantage going crazy big on the turbo. I'd go 3071 or 3076r or DOM3.

I'm still on the SZ55 and liking it. Hopefully plan to cam and port it in the future once this 6spd gets done.
 
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