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2004 Forester XS
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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone,

Longtime lurker, first time poster. Because of you guys I've managed to diagnose quite a number of issues with my '04 XS. So thank you.

But, this newest one's got me stumped.

While driving yesterday the car made this rattling sort of noise (to me it sounded like the exhaust plates rattling - my wife, driving, said she felt a shudder) and stalled. We tried to restart and it sounded like just the ignition/starter was making any sound. Fearing the worst, I pulled off the timing cover and mercifully, the timing belt was intact. I have a hunch it's related regardless. My reader threw these codes: P0336 and P0341.

Where should I go from here? My thought was to pull the rest off the belts and try to set the crank TDC and see where the lines match up or don't. Anyone have a similar experience?

Any help would be most appreciated.

Thanks
 

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2007 Forester Sports XT 4EAT
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I see this is your first forum post, so welcome to the forum from Oregon! :biggrin:

► Edit -CEL codes point to the crankshaft & camshaft sensors! Both CEL codes refer to the crankshaft position sensor. More poop on the P0336 CEL code here.

More information on the P0341 CEL code can be viewed here here.

How many miles on your '04 & is the timing belt maintenance up to date? :confused:

Bobby...

['07 FSXT MODding Journal] ['03 X MODding Journal]
 

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2004 Forester XS
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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for having me. :smile2:

It has 162.5K on it. Have a receipt from the previous owner that says the timing belt and pump were done at 103K. Popped one side of the cover off today and the belt looked decent, plenty of tension, maybe some thin cracking which may be normal, but IDK. I can share some pics, though maybe first thing to check tomorrow morning is the battery.
 

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2007 Forester Sports XT 4EAT
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While driving yesterday the car made this rattling sort of noise (to me it sounded like the exhaust plates rattling - my wife, driving, said she felt a shudder) and stalled.
Assuming the timing belt maintenance was done correctly... all the wear parts replaced & the belt didn't jump a tooth. That means there was something else that failed & a detailed inspection may locate it. :confused:

Bobby...

['07 FSXT MODding Journal] ['03 X MODding Journal]
 

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2004 Forester XS
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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the replies, guys.

I definitely feel like it's something with the timing. I was testing the battery (fine) and cranked it a few times. No go, though I saw a thin, wispy smoke which I traced to the airbox. However, when I looked at the timing belt again, I noticed it was noticeably slacker on the top coming off the tensioner.

Here's a video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6AExUSLRtHZUzI2dktramJWeHM/view



That's too slack, right? Otherwise, everything looks pretty clean in there.
 

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2007 Forester Sports XT 4EAT
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I fixed the video link for you. :wink:

Hard to see, but what I can see looks like hydraulic tensioner may have failed... unless an idler failed? :confused:

Unless you think there's been valve damage... the engine is interference fit, the place to start would be to redo the timing belt maintenance.

Bobby...

['07 FSXT MODding Journal] ['03 X MODding Journal]
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks, Bobby.

That was my thought too. Redoing the maintenance seems doable. I don't suspect there's valve damage, but how would I know?

And if I notice the timing marks are off at TDC from the belt possibly slipping how do I get it right? Is it as simple as turning the cam pulleys until they line up to the marks?
 

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2007 Forester Sports XT 4EAT
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It has 162.5K on it. Have a receipt from the previous owner that says the timing belt and pump were done at 103K.
Many shops will cut the cost of this maintenance by not replacing all the wear parts. at 100+K miles, the parts are going to be iffy to reuse.

You can view what a timing belt kit consists on here on Jackie's, @SubaruPartsGirl sales thread: Forester Timing Belt Kits

I don't suspect there's valve damage, but how would I know?
Assuming you're not hearing any noise... like pistons hitting the valves, once the timing belt is correctly installed, you could try & start the engine. If it runs normally, you're good. The other way to test is to do a compression test to verify the valves are sealing correctly.

Bobby...

['07 FSXT MODding Journal] ['03 X MODding Journal]
 

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Discussion Starter #12
And just to follow up on the valve question, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying about interference, but most of what I've read online and the mechanics I've talked to around here say the motor is non-interference.

From Wiki: The U.S. Market was offered the car with either the 2.5 SOHC naturally aspirated engine, or the 2.5 DOHC turbocharged version added in 2004.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Lol, I saw that. Interference it is.

Not sure how I want to proceed then. I'd rather not have to pull off the heads to check for damage as it's parked in the street, although I have done it once before on an old BMW. And it's kind of a waste to replace the timing components in the hopes that the valves aren't damaged. In your opinion, what are the odds the valves/cylinders have been damaged?
 

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2007 Forester Sports XT 4EAT
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There have some member's that have been lucky, but the odds are against you. :frown:

The possibility of valve damage will depend on how may teeth the loose timing belt jumped. :confused:

Unless you have a place to work on your Forester, your best option could be an independent shop. A shop recommended by friends or family is a plus. :wink:

Bobby...

['07 FSXT MODding Journal] ['03 X MODding Journal]
 

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Discussion Starter #16
There have some member's that have been lucky, but the odds are against you. :frown:

The possibility of valve damage will depend on how may teeth the loose timing belt jumped. :confused:

Unless you have a place to work on your Forester, your best option could be an independent shop. A shop recommended by friends or family is a plus. :wink:

Bobby...
Already got one recommended.

Well, thanks for your help.

I'll let you know how it turns out.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
UPDATE: '04 XS Stalled and won't start, throwing P0336 and P0341

Update

Well, the worst possible scenario happened. :frown2:

Took it to a local guy recommended to me by another Forester owner I know.

I was very clear with him that I was concerned the engine may be toast. He agreed to take a look and after a few hours called to tell me he got it to run again with no issues. Said one of the idlers had gone bad and in fact ripped the timing belt but the rest of the engine was fine. Relieved, I agreed to have him finish replacing the timing components. A week later, he tells me the car’s ready, shows me the old worn parts, etc. I pay him 1300 bucks and go to start the car. And it runs like ****. I hear knocking, it’s pitching and rolling, smells of gas, CEL is flashing (Cylinder 2&4 misfire). I bring this to his attention and he says it didn’t do that when his guy test drove it this morning. He says to leave it with him overnight.

Next day I get a call. He tells me it works fine when cold and at high RPM, but that it’s got a faulty valve, and that I need a new engine, or can keep driving it as is. Of course, I’m furious, as I expected him to figure that out before I dropped 1300 bucks on “OEM” replacement parts and $100 an hour labor. He said, it passed their “tests,” that this has only happened 3 times to him in 25 years (where he misdiagnosed the problem I guess he meant). He told me he wasn’t willing to do any more work on it, that he doesn't do those jobs and that it’s not worth fixing, that he changed his plans to work over the fourth weekend (didn’t ask him to do that), to take it to a Subaru dealer and see what they say, oh, and to come back and see him with any future needs. No offer to reduce the bill.

I’m fuming just typing it out. :furious:

Curious if you or anyone you know has had this happen and what you did about it.

I’ve filed a complaint with the State AG (Mass. seems to have some decent consumer protections) and plan on disputing the charge through my credit card company. Will also be looking into any legal recourse I may have.

Any helpful thoughts would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Eugene
 

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Hello everyone,

Longtime lurker, first time poster. Because of you guys I've managed to diagnose quite a number of issues with my '04 XS. So thank you.

But, this newest one's got me stumped.

While driving yesterday the car made this rattling sort of noise (to me it sounded like the exhaust plates rattling - my wife, driving, said she felt a shudder) and stalled. We tried to restart and it sounded like just the ignition/starter was making any sound. Fearing the worst, I pulled off the timing cover and mercifully, the timing belt was intact. I have a hunch it's related regardless. My reader threw these codes: P0336 and P0341.

Where should I go from here? My thought was to pull the rest off the belts and try to set the crank TDC and see where the lines match up or don't. Anyone have a similar experience?

Any help would be most appreciated.

Thanks
  1. The camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor are shielded wires. The shielding for both share a common ground. You either have a short to ground with the camshaft or crankshaft sensor. Ohm the camshaft sensor between the plug on the right side and a ground. It the resistance is more than 100k ohm you have a short to ground its either the camshaft or crankshaft wire.
 

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2004 FXT 4EAT
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  1. The camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor are shielded wires. The shielding for both share a common ground. You either have a short to ground with the camshaft or crankshaft sensor. Ohm the camshaft sensor between the plug on the right side and a ground. It the resistance is more than 100k ohm you have a short to ground its either the camshaft or crankshaft wire.
I'm not sure if you've read the whole thread, but that's completely not relevant to the issue he was having...
 
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