stan_t

Hello,

Would you use a UTEC Delta on a stock '07 XT?

Seems EM would be the first correct step in search for performance changes. AP makes it look very easy with their Stage 1 maps for a stock car, but it isn't available yet for '07.. so, UTEC seems to be the common commercially-supported option. Are there pre-defined maps that would be safe on a stock '07 XT and provide noticeable advantages? I would like to approach upgrades in stages for financial reasons and to better feel results of every individual component. Eventually, I would love to be able to tune the car myself, but I have to start somewhere first.

I don't have to do anything now, the car runs sweet as-is with 4K miles on the clock.. but, there's that itch

Thank you,

Stan

Rock_Strongo

Search, I know there a few members here that have them, and some have them on order. Here are some of the threads about it.
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...earchid=487436

In short, I know you can use it.

RocketEyes

UTECs are good if you know how to tune them; even the pre-done maps needs some tweaking for your own driving style.

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Meg
2007 WRB XT Sport Auto

thefoos

If you have any patience at all, I would wait for Enginuity definitions! Plus you mentioned financial concerns, and that should push you even further to Enginuity.

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Scott
04 MT FXT STG 2 5 spd
02 WRX STG 2 5 spd

Wrathchild

100% I would.

And have.

Even if you are planning for enginuity, the best EM setup out there is a reflash AND utec.
Also, the stage 1 and 2 06 WRX maps worked very VERY well on my 07 FXT. Zero detonation and real nice power gains.

I spoke to gabe yesterday and he said they still dont have any ETA on cracking the API :(

BAC5.2

Yes.

__________________
The Aggressive™ -- You don't know about it.

1998 Forester S - Big brakes, Big Tires, 5-gears.

stan_t

Thanks you guys for the comments. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how these things work and which route I want to go in the future. If you could bare with me while I figure this out.. this is my lamo understanding of how these things work:

With the AP, anything is a re-flash? You get an image from either AP or a pro tuner who saved it in AP format, and it gets written to the ECU. AP only needs to be connected when you want to switch maps (re-flash ECU).

UTEC Delta works on top of whatever your ECU is running. Your ECU can stay stock and values can be manipulated real-time either by using '06 WRX definitions, or whatever you manually define. Or, you can re-flash ECU and still do the same. UTEC Delta always has to be connected and if it gets disconnected you are running on whatever is on the ECU at the moment (if ECU was never flashed, nobody would ever know you even had UTEC connected).

With Enginuity, everything is a re-flash as well. You rip your original ECU image, hack it, then re-write it to the ECU.

Is that about right?

Thank you,

Stan

Wrathchild

Yes on the AP.
There is no way the UTEC can come disconnected. It plugs into the ECU, and the harness plugs into the UTEC (the harness that used to go to the ECU now goes through the UTEC) and the UTEC is physically secured somewhere under your dash. You can switch maps on the fly by pushing a button, and you have 5 map choices+ a security map + a valet map. 7 maps total, available without having to plug anything else in, or carry something around that can get lost/damaged/stolen.
Yes on Enginuity, but it has far more extensive capabilities than the AP or protune software. Its learning curve is also far steeper. And you dont have to hack your ECU's image, you can get ROMs from guys who have made base maps and load them onto your ECU. And its not hacking at all really. It loads into a nice interface with TONS of parameters you can modify.

You can find base maps for any of them, but it will be at least a few weeks to a month or two after enginuity comes out until there is a good base map.
To tune the AP you need to buy the street tuner at an extra charge, and a laptop.
To tune the UTEC you need a laptop and nothing more.
To tune Enginuity, you need a laptop and an $80 cable. But it can do more than the AP. But its a lot more complex.
The UTEC can do things neither the AP or Enginuity can do
Enginuity can do things the UTEC and AP cant.
The AP is plug it in, hit a few buttons and walk away easy. But you are stuck with the basemap unless you get tuned or buy the street tuner software.

To safely tune any of them, you will need a wideband A/F setup. HOWEVER, you can make small changes to fix or minimize any major map issues without it. This is where the UTEC really shines over the AP. With the ap, if you have detonation (which BTW, you wont know if you do, because it has no way to tell you, whereas the UTEC flashes the check engine light when it hears det. Built in knock light FTW!) you have no way of fixing it other than calling cobb and begging for a new map (good luck, its a crapshoot, sometimes you get fast good response, sometimes you call 20 times to get what you need done) or spending $$$ on a tune. With a UTEC, you datalog the det, and fix it. Even without a wideband you can usually tell if its fuel or timing related just by looking at the logs (and if you cant, there are a ton of us who can, and can help you learn) and either add/pull some fuel, or pull a degree of timing or so on that spot to eliminate the knock. You can also freely load other peoples maps. You cant with the AP, but you can with Enginuity or a UTEC.

The UTEC has the turboXS tuner that seemlessly integrates into it, very easy. It can also use a UEGO, or LM-1/LC-1.
The AP, well, its useless without the street tuner, but you can get an external wideband, but cant datalog nearly as well or easily.
Enginuity has more extensive datalogging, but again, getting the wideband info in isnt quiet as easy.


It all depends what you want to do. I personally recommend the UTEC for the average user, Enginuity for more advanced user, and a combination of Enginuity and a UTEC for the advanced user who wants the best possible setup.


Unless you REALLY want kickass, then go Hydra and dont look back. But by the time you get everything to set it up, its close to 2 grand. But its the best by a mile.

stan_t

Thank you very much for the info, this is an excellent comparison. I finally have an idea of what's going on here. Looks like in my case UTEC would be the only way to go since I'd be adding a wideband and EGT sensor and want ability to tune. If I'd want to go further, all it will take is an $80 cable and more research. Besides, UTEC the only option available for '07 XT at the moment.

Stan

Wrathchild

Well an EGT will be an extra standalone thing that doesnt log into the utec. But the turboxs tuner wideband does, and seemlessly.

In an EGT guage, you want something that reads to 2000 deg (1800 minimum) and has a fast reacting probe. The standard autometer EGT kit comes with a slow probe, slow enough as to be fairly useless. Their competition probe works very well though, but you will max it out on big pulls.

I recommend Greddy as a great priced excellent quality gauge.

KeNd0

WOW This thread just answered a lot of questions for me.

Thanks to Stan for asking what I couldn`t put to words, and Wrathchild for the comparisons.

subisan

I'm glad to hear about the built-in knock light! My old Apexi Power FC had that same function and I could set it to light up at any deg. of knock, VERY nice feature.

Great info Wrathchild, as I'm still debating on what method I'll be doing.

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H2O GO!!!
www.dreweldridge.com

sirwilliam

Just to let you know. The StreetTuner software only cost me ~$100 to get on top of the cost of the AP. It works seamlessly w/ my PLX M300 WB O2 controller. Data logging was good and the wideband worked great...well, until the sensor went bad but that happens...just replace it. Detonation isn't a problem if you tune correctly.

UTEC is good. AP is good. Enginuity is good. Hydra is good.

Enginuity is the best bang for the buck. Hydra is good but, IIRC, you can't pass emissions w/ it b/c the OBD-II emissions testing will recognize the interference in the ECU programming.

If COBB AP doesn't come around for my '08, I may end up using Enginuity or UTEC. We'll see.

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BLUE WASABI

Integrity Performance

I knew all that

One thing you need to know, the street tuner is very limited compared to what you can do with Enginuity. They arent the same thing. There are several things the street tuner software doesnt allow you access to that Enginuity does. I know of 2-3 cars off the top of my head that had tuning problems that couldnt be fixed with the street tuner, because they couldnt get to the thing they needed to adjust. All 3 went Enginuity and the problems were fixed. Just because it is also a reflash program, doesnt mean they are the same thing ;)

And there are still other things neither can do that the UTEC can. Which is why UTEC+Enginuity is the best possible EM out there (other than maybe the Hydra, which is pure badassness). All the capabilities, none of the limitations. And its only $80 more than the UTEC.
As soon as the open source guys crack it, I will be running the UTEC/Enginuity combo. But its definately a more "advanced" setup to make the 2 play well together. What I am planning is to use enginuity to control the car before the UTEC crossover point, and to control the AVCS, and let the UTEC handle everything past the UTEC crossover point (other than AVCS). As well as just plain eliminate some of the pesky codes.

sirwilliam

I never said they were the same thing.

I ran StreetTuner w/ Enginuity and that is pretty powerful. I didn't really care that I didn't get launch control but everything else worked great. I am not trying to sway people not to get a UTEC, just give another perspective. In the end I may end up w/ the Enginuity and/or UTEC but we will see

If you need EM right this second, UTEC is the only choice...and if you have a competent UTEC tuner you can trust, I say go for it.

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BLUE WASABI