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Old 02-23-2012, 10:15 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Thumbs up wastegate/turbo failure?

After getting a new BCS and a dyno tune done, its pretty obvious that I'm still having an issue- but, I cant tell if the issue lies with the wastegate or the turbo itself.

This started after the car sat for over a month while I got together some coin for a clutch replacement. When my son was following behind me, he said the car was smoking until we got to the shop- not badly, but, he said it was noticeable. Now, following 3 dyno tunes and some bolt ons, the XT (on paper) looks pretty impressive. However, it doesnt have the same throttle response/power it had before and, I now have had overboost on a few occasions, along with what I would describe as a "hissing" sound coming from the turbo when accelerating. Now, this isnt the turbo "whistle"- this is an entirely new noise coming from the turbo.

Since my tuner and I are "agreeing to disagree" that there is an issue here, I'll put it to you guys/gals- what would the signs of an improperly functioning wastegate and/or a turbo that is starting to fail? Any thoughts? I'm thinking about bringing the XT back to the tuner just to have them drop the DP to see what they can see on the turbo itself (e.g. shaft play, housing scoring,etc). I'm guessing I've pushed the factory TD04 pretty much as far as it will go, but, in the process, have I damaged something? All I know is that the car was running VERY strong, and, now it just feels flat. I just dont want to keep compounding this problem by not addressing this issue.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:12 AM   #2 (permalink)
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What color smoke? What's your tuner suspicion?

Turbo is easy enough to swap and a used TD04 can be had fairly cheap.

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Old 02-23-2012, 11:13 AM   #3 (permalink)
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How much boost are you running? It sounds like you're either dealing with a boost leak or a wastegate issue.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:18 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I'd check the BCS reference line comming off of the turbo outlet. If its cracked or disconnected you'd get a hissing sound under boost and it would keep building boost past your boost target. Probably check all the hoses going to the BCS too.

This wouldn't cause and smoke though, that could be caused by the turbo going bad (possibly from overboosting??)
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:10 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thumbs up In some semblance of order....

Stan- it was white smoke, which I'm assuming is oil burning off. I hear ya on the TD04-it may make sense to just pick up a good used one (or maybe a TD05?) just to see if that works. I'd hate to drop a bunch of coin on a whole turbo setup, only to find its something else. What my tuner was thinking is that the BCS had crashed, which is why I was having the driveability issues. However, while the Grimmspeed unit is definitely working as advertised, the issue is still present.

Pleiad- I'm running 17 psi, which I'm assuming is pretty much the max for that turbo. What my tuner thought was going on is a wastegate issue.

Shef- when he installed the BCS, all the lines were checked and/or replaced as necessary; he wanted to eliminate all possible issues. I'm thinking I've pushed a 87000 mile TD04 pretty hard, so, a replacement TD 04/05 may be in order. Just for reference, heres my dyno graph with the boost curve:

http://www.eastcoastswappers.com/mai...rgb2=204000000

The weird thing is that I figured if the turbo was going bad, the first thing I'd notice is the inability to build boost on my mechanical boost guage- but, its reading 17 psi at WOT. I think at this point, I'm open for suggestions...
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Boost curve looks pretty smooth. I havne't studied many TD04 plots but it seems to come on a little late even with the EBCS now that I compare to my VF22(slowest spooling VF turbo) plot. I hit peak tq right around 3600 on my 91 map and you appear to be right around 3700ish, again I could be off but that seems a tad late for a TD04?
Does your tuner have means to test for a boost leak? Mine had a sweet smoke machine set up that worked great. Or there's home made versions you could put together to test at home. A boost leak could cause all the symptoms, whistle, lag, rich condition causing smoke (but not white smoke??) The white smoke shoots down all my theories, sorry!
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Good point!

Shef- the smoke that was observed was transient....it went away after awhile, so, your theories seem to be right on the mark. What concerns me is that in the span of a few months, I had a clutch and a trans swap....the chances something was disturbed increases, the more things are "disturbed". My tuner told me he backtracked everything to make sure nothing was missing/binding/split/disconnected....that being said, he didnt do a vacuum test.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Uh, the smoke could've had something to do with sitting for a few months or the work done. I always manage to spill oil and or coolant on the exhaust manifold or down the upipe so I get smoke for a while after performing major work.

For the record Pleiad suggested the boost leak first, let's hope she's right as that's an easier fix than a new turbo or ???
Good luck with the boost leak check!
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:34 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Issue found...

Well, as it turns out, a good friend of mine is building a BEAST of a Genesis 3.8 and invited my son and I to watch the car getting dyno tuned yesterday, which ironically, was being done at my tuners shop (he "shares" his dynojet with another shop nearby). So, while we were there, Paul, the owner of ECS showed up and, we went out for a rip in my car, while Paul datalogged. He changed some things, had me drive...changed some more things....and had me drive some more.

What he arrived at was, no matter what he did to try and adjust it, the wastegate duty cycle changes literally werent doing anything, one way or another. He also, from the passenger seat, very much heard the noise I was talking about, and said that he felt that the wastegate was not functioning right, thus leaking boost. So, while on paper, at WOT, it looks pretty good, at anything less than WOT, its not holding anything. He said that my TD04, at almost 100k has what he felt was a good amount of wear, especially after being tuned a few times. So, he gave me a few options:

1) Since I've spent quite a bit of money on dyno tunes, only to have the car run "right" for less than a month before the clutch went, I could find a second hand TD04 off a Forester, which they could literally install without changing anything ...or
2) Go for a whole different turbo setup, with new injectors, TMIC and a new tune- which I'm looking at spending a few months salary to do.

Right now, I'm going to proceed after option #1- I know its just a stock turbo and that there are no guarantees, but, after spending almost a grand on just tuning for a TD04, I'd like to enjoy that tuning....
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I missed you had gotten this figured out. At least its option 1 is a relatively cheap fix! Wear out one more TD04 while you're saving for the next step... :)
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Shef....

I couldnt agree more!

The way I see it, I've spent quite a bit of money on two TD04 Protunes, so, why not get another TD04 and see how it drives?? The other thing is that, if theres yet another issue that somehow crops up, it would make more sense to put a factory unit back in to take out any/all variables for troubleshooting. I'm awaiting a refund for a part before I can get another TD04- it would appear that the 11k mile donor car I got my trans out of has a turbo to give so, why not get THAT unit?
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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heck yah, that'd be one of the lowest mildage TD04s I've seen!
So what did the beast 3.8 gensis put down? Force inducted?
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Talking Totally off topic...

All I know is that BTRcc is doing the tuning, and, I could only stay for the baseline tune- at 6Psi, with a custom turbo kit and standalone computer tuning, he was at 345hp 320 ft lbs at the wheels! The turbo/engine combo will be tuned to I believe 15 psi....so, based on the 6 psi run, it should be north of 500 whp

I was lucky to find a company that has a parted 07 XT with ridiculously low mileage that I can pick parts off...
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Update!

Well, after speaking with Paul, the owner of ECS, we decided to follow a methodical approach and address one system (as it were) at a time to see what we came up with before we start slinging parts.

So, step 2 was to get a compression test done of the motor- turns out all the cylinders are with 4 psi of factory spec, so, thankfully, whatever happened wasnt internal.

Here's the thing- the turbo spools fine, and theres no erratic readings for the boost, WGDC, or anything with the turbo actually. What we're thinking is that either the wastegate itself is malfunctioning, or, the cat in the uppipe is clogged and will need replacement. Either way, its going to be another trip back to them to yank out the turbo and dp to "see what we can see". Hopefully, its just the uppipe thats clogged, and the noise I'm hearing is the exhaust pulses hitting the occlusion in the pipe.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:00 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You don't have a cat in the uppipe. Not on your year any way.
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