Subuaru 4-pots and upgraded rotor questions... - Page 4

BAC5.2 · 09-30-2008, 06:34 PM

This is really quite simple.

You asked about their solution to the front bias "problem" of Subaru's.

Reading their reply over and over and over again, I can't see how that it didn't sufficiently answer your question. There are three things you can do to alter bias. You can either alter rotor size, alter pad compound, or alter pressure behind the pads. They can help with the former of that, so that is the avenue they described.

How didn't that answer your question? Had you asked Stoptech, who's philosophy you are so fond of, they would have told you exactly the same thing. Actually, Stoptech didn't do anything extraordinary to compensate for the "front bias" of the Subaru brake system.

Actually, this reminds me.

Look at the diagram below borrowed from Stoptech's own white papers on brake balance. The option dead set in the middle of the "balanced" zone is a Stoptech 4-wheel kit.

Further on Stoptech's site, in their Rear Brake white paper, they quote "Our competitors should consider developing a FRONT kit to match their stock bias condition. They'll be very happy with the performance improvement if done properly, AND will save their customers the cost of a rear brake upgrade in the process."

Well, since RB HAS developed a FRONT kit that effects bias exactly as the Stoptech Kit does, they are good to go.

In fact, if you look at the calculations I have done, you'll see that the rear upgrades RB recommends push the bias even closer to some of the "better" stock options, which will help take advantage of other suspension upgrades you may have made. The rear upgrades aren't a requirement to maintain stock-like bias, but they will help take advantage of the suspension you spent time putting together. They also combine with OE offerings to make a setup biased however you'd like. In the true fashion of Subaru, the lego-like solutions they have give the informed end user the option to design a brake system how they would like.

I'm no "fanboi". The stake I have in RacingBrake comes from the fact that they are simply cool guys. Good, honest people who care about not screwing people, and providing what the people want. I made a post on their message board about a product I thought would be cool. They e-mailed me, we talked (... a lot), and within 6 months, my "hey that would be cool" brake idea made it to production. It was a solid idea based on fact, and they got excited about it.

At the end of the day, you can think whatever you want. I don't care one way or the other. I don't expect to change your mind. What I DO expect is that, if you are going to criticize them, you should at least have a reason, experience, or know more than they do about the product in question and their competition. It's not internet semantics, it's fairness.

At the top of my automotive priority list is help shed light on questions I have by applying the experience and knowledge I've gained from the Subaru industry. I might be wrong about all of this.

The Black Box · 09-30-2008, 08:53 PM

Dude- you need to get a life. Here I'll link you to my replies. For some reason you can't accept the fact that I completely accepted Racing Brake's reply but I don't have to agree with it or you. I was like that too in my younger days. LOL.

RB calipers vs. Brembo and other calipers

RB calipers vs. Brembo and other calipers

You obviously have a strong need to prove your knowledge. You can cheerlead for whoever you want and so can I. You are also free to dispute Stop Tech's philosophys if they post here as well but just because someone's "cool" doesn't make me want to buy their product. By the way what kind of "racing" do they do? I don't believe I've ever seen their brakes on a car at the track where there were turns?

Yes I can and will buy whatever I want. Unfortunately you seem to need to control other people's thoughts or opinions. It's still a free country last I checked.

Sorry Fuquad. LOL.

BAC5.2 · 09-30-2008, 09:03 PM

I really dislike the propagation of misinformation. I was simply correcting the misinformation you were spreading.

I don't dispute Stoptech's philosophy. I agree with it completely. But what you don't seem to comprehend is that RB follows that philosophy as well.

In no way am I trying to control other people's thoughts. I am actually putting fact out there. To attempt to mark me as a fascist shows that you are certainly stuck in younger days than I.

sea-scooby · 09-30-2008, 09:18 PM

If "control other people's thoughts" means provide useful and documented information so people can make an informed decision, then your are totally correct. BAC5.2 has always provide good fact based information, where all I see from Black Box is aggressive and factless responses.

Black Box-

The whole problem here was started by you. Your first post was basically a slam against RB.
"+1 but there's no bling factor or "racy" name...LOL
Don't waste your money on bling rotors. There's just no proof that they offer any improvement over stock besides the seller's splashy website, nothing empirical."

Why post something like that why you have no experience with their products.

You also said "I prefer Stop Techs philosophy over Racing Brake's" but you get defensive when it is shown that RB has basically the same philosphy. Your getting all work up about calipers, when the OP was asking about rotors.

The Black Box · 09-30-2008, 09:43 PM

Wow. I answered Fuquad's question and offered sound advice regarding the rotors which you have conveniently ignored in defense of someone. Unfortunately my opinion on rotors differ from the majority but I understand people need validation for their purchases.

I don't have to agree with you nor do I keep trying to ram anything down your throat. It doesn't matter how hard someone plays with their slide ruler, I don't have to agree with their choice. Whatever, I don't have to agree nor does it matter if you like the tone of my responses. It's a technical forum not a debutantes ball. LOL.

Boy you guys need to get a room...

Fuquad · 09-30-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Box

You should. Every time I've had "judder" after a spirited canyon run it was because of uneven pad deposits from coming to a complete stop with hot brakes which is unavoidable for the most part. I might add that this almost always happens with the stock pads. They just aren't designed for that much heat. A couple of hard stops smoothed things out again. Not saying they aren't warped but that is very, very rare.

As far as the uneven wear, it sounds likely but this would be more likely with a Brembo front only take off upgrade and not the four pots. I think the four pots actually have less clamping force than stock?

Would influx of "judder" be a better indication of rotors or pads? In other words, it is worse some times than others (not consistent).

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Box

You obviously have an open mind and don't have your mind made up already. I respect that.

Hell, I have no problem admitting when I need advice. Braking is one area I never really needed help in (having owned two STi's; Brembo's never gave me any issues).

I guess I should figure out where the problem actually is before making any decisions...

BAC5.2 · 09-30-2008, 10:08 PM

You didn't offer sound advice. Your advice was an unsubstantiated claim and a jab at a supporting vendor. Real mature.

The facts of slotted vs. blank are just that. Facts. A slotted rotor will provide better performance than a blank rotor. Whether or not you will see these effects is moot and not the question at hand. And to say that you shouldn't go comparing a Forester to a "real sports car" is foolish. Physics doesn't care if the brakes are housed behind the wheels of a DB9-R or a Geo Metro. Physics is physics. The comparisons are well documented on many respected sites. Stoptech has a blurb about the use of slotted rotors in high performance applications, and just about every big-name race team in the world is running a slotted rotor of some sort. There is a reason, and it's not because it looks "bling" or "racy".

The Black Box · 09-30-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuquad

Would influx of "judder" be a better indication of rotors or pads? In other words, it is worse some times than others (not consistent).

I guess I should figure out where the problem actually is before making any decisions...

It happens with stock pads more often because they are more apt to fade and overheat. Until you get into two piece rotors there just isn't any real difference between rotors besides looks on the street. That's my advice to your question. Anyone else care to actually try to help the O.P?

Judder is from uneven pad deposits on rotors 99.9% of the time.

Smart man. At least there's still a place for individual adverse thought. God bless America!

sea-scooby · 10-01-2008, 07:19 AM

I think the Brembo blanks are a very good value, but my main issue with them is they rust very quickly. I was tired of the rusty bad looking stock rotors and I didn't want to deal with that again, so I spend $20 more per rotor for one that will not rust. Maybe it is just a superficial thing, but we all do care about the looks of our cars to some extent.

Now if I was tracking more often, I have a dedicated set of Brembo blanks just for it. Good price and good performance.

Arthrogrian19 · 10-01-2008, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea-scooby

I think the Brembo blanks are a very good value, but my main issue with them is they rust very quickly. I was tired of the rusty bad looking stock rotors and I didn't want to deal with that again, so I spend $20 more per rotor for one that will not rust. Maybe it is just a superficial thing, but we all do care about the looks of our cars to some extent.

Now if I was tracking more often, I have a dedicated set of Brembo blanks just for it. Good price and good performance.

I installed Brembo blanks on my Passat to replace the stock (warped) rotors. They did rust quickly, but it didn't seem to affect the performance. The brake pad kept them fairly clean with everyday use. They're a great value @ ~$40/rotor.

That said, we get a lot of rain in the PNW, so I'll probably buy a rust resistant rotor whenever I do my brakes.

sea-scooby · 10-01-2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthrogrian19

I installed Brembo blanks on my Passat to replace the stock (warped) rotors. They did rust quickly, but it didn't seem to affect the performance. The brake pad kept them fairly clean with everyday use. They're a great value @ ~$40/rotor.

That said, we get a lot of rain in the PNW, so I'll probably buy a rust resistant rotor whenever I do my brakes.

I don't drive much, so my rotors tended to stay rusty. I also hate the rust that stays on the parts the pad doesn't hit. I know it doesn't affect anything, but it is like a door ding, it just bugs me.

Arthrogrian19 · 10-01-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea-scooby

I don't drive much, so my rotors tended to stay rusty. I also hate the rust that stays on the parts the pad doesn't hit. I know it doesn't affect anything, but it is like a door ding, it just bugs me.

Totally understandable!

I'd leave my Passat at the airport for a week (uncovered, in the rain), and the rotors would be brown by the time I returned. I knew a few guys who painted the rotor hats. It definitely provided some protection, but rust would still develop around the edges of the rotor.

2.5x_sleeper · 10-01-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sea-scooby

I don't drive much, so my rotors tended to stay rusty. I also hate the rust that stays on the parts the pad doesn't hit. I know it doesn't affect anything, but it is like a door ding, it just bugs me.

I use the trick the wheel installers use. Once a year I remove my wheels & clean off the breaks & give them a light coat of Rust-Oleum high heat paint (Bar-B-Q black). When I first saw this done, I was shocked, but any paint that's on the rotor is gone after the first breaking & any areas that are not touched stay nicely painted & rust free.

Matter of fact, I use this paint on any underbody areas (exhaust) that show rust. It does a great job of coating & preventing rust. BTW, it does a great job keeping your Bar-B-Q looking new...:)

Bobby...

RacingBrake · 10-07-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Box

+1 but there's no bling factor or "racy" name...LOL

Don't waste your money on bling rotors. There's just no proof that they offer any improvement over stock besides the seller's splashy website, nothing empirical.

Our rotors are made with improved metallurgy of SAE J431 G3500 (35,000 psi) tensile strength as compared to standard stock rotors' rating of G3000 (30,000 psi), and with our patented designs such as reinforced ribs (Fig. #1). These designs have proven to solve the warping problems commonly associated with the stock design (see our explanation below - Fig. #2). This rotor happens to be the most popular upgrade for WRX drivers from either OE stock or other aftermarket rotors that have had repeated warping problems. The rotor is also available for Forester stock front 3/02-09, and as an upgrade for the earlier 98-2/02 model.

Fig. #1

Fig. #2

We may not have as big a name as other brake companies, however we do carefully engineer our products with guaranteed performance improvement, and not just for Subaru vehicles. Here are some of the typical testimonials on various applications with RB brake products:

BMW Z4M review:
“I ended up installing DTC60 pads, RacingBrake front rotors (they needed replacement anyhow), Turner brass guide bushings, and opened up the ducts in the front. After 3 track days at Infineon and 2 at Thunderhill (at 103F) , the difference was amazing. No problem with cooling, fade or anything else and the feel was much improved.”

Mazda RX-7 review:
“Based on this experience, I think you could literally run a 3-day weekend flat out at Thunderhill with this setup without any issues. Not bad for an un-ducted brake system! The rotors, as before, showed no measurable wear whatsoever. What do they build these things out of? Based on my current rate of wear, I will have to replace them in the year 2046.”

Acura NSX review:
“The hottest I have gotten my RB rotors on the track is 500F and that is 100F-150F cooler than the OEM rotors I used to run under the same settings/conditions/track. Moral of the story, the RB brakes work. Don't ask me how”

Cadillac CTS-V review:
“With over 180 minutes of track time, the two piece brake rotor performed extremely well again. After running for periods of time and waiting for the last possible moment to enter and exit the turns, the RacingBrake rotors continue to perform unbelievably.” – Bobby Fischer, top CTS-V racer

Here is the most recent review:

Mazda RX7:
"Also of note is that we can see the effect of the Racing Brake rotor design. In the right rear I had paint both next to, and opposite of the tabs that hold the rotor to the hat. The difference shows up very obviously in the paint as a 200 degree difference in temp. Here's the pictures that also show the temp difference:" - GooRoo

For the Forester street application, here is Sea-Scooby's experieinces with his new RB brakes (posted in this thread):

"When I replaced my rotors, that "judder" you speak of disappeared. I have a huge hill I drive down each day, and with the stock rotors I would get that "judder" near the bottom of the hill. It is completely gone now, but I did pads, rotors and fluid.:"

To learn more, you can go to various web forums (WRX in particular) and ask people about their experiences with our brakes.

Many of our customers acknowledge that RB brakes do perform better and last longer without really knowing the reason behind their improved performance. We hope that this post provides some insight into the production of our rotors, and some proof that they do perform better than stock.

We look forward to continuing to serve the Subaru community. Thank you for reading.

The Black Box · 10-07-2008, 04:54 PM

If you seriously can say with a clear conscience that any of this matters to someone who only drives on the street there's really nothing more to be said.

09-30-2008, 06:34 PM	#46 (permalink)
BAC5.2 iMod Contributing Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 7,252 Gallery: 0 iTrader: 3 / 100%	This is really quite simple. You asked about their solution to the front bias "problem" of Subaru's. Reading their reply over and over and over again, I can't see how that it didn't sufficiently answer your question. There are three things you can do to alter bias. You can either alter rotor size, alter pad compound, or alter pressure behind the pads. They can help with the former of that, so that is the avenue they described. How didn't that answer your question? Had you asked Stoptech, who's philosophy you are so fond of, they would have told you exactly the same thing. Actually, Stoptech didn't do anything extraordinary to compensate for the "front bias" of the Subaru brake system. Actually, this reminds me. Look at the diagram below borrowed from Stoptech's own white papers on brake balance. The option dead set in the middle of the "balanced" zone is a Stoptech 4-wheel kit. Further on Stoptech's site, in their Rear Brake white paper, they quote "Our competitors should consider developing a FRONT kit to match their stock bias condition. They'll be very happy with the performance improvement if done properly, AND will save their customers the cost of a rear brake upgrade in the process." Well, since RB HAS developed a FRONT kit that effects bias exactly as the Stoptech Kit does, they are good to go. In fact, if you look at the calculations I have done, you'll see that the rear upgrades RB recommends push the bias even closer to some of the "better" stock options, which will help take advantage of other suspension upgrades you may have made. The rear upgrades aren't a requirement to maintain stock-like bias, but they will help take advantage of the suspension you spent time putting together. They also combine with OE offerings to make a setup biased however you'd like. In the true fashion of Subaru, the lego-like solutions they have give the informed end user the option to design a brake system how they would like. I'm no "fanboi". The stake I have in RacingBrake comes from the fact that they are simply cool guys. Good, honest people who care about not screwing people, and providing what the people want. I made a post on their message board about a product I thought would be cool. They e-mailed me, we talked (... a lot), and within 6 months, my "hey that would be cool" brake idea made it to production. It was a solid idea based on fact, and they got excited about it. At the end of the day, you can think whatever you want. I don't care one way or the other. I don't expect to change your mind. What I DO expect is that, if you are going to criticize them, you should at least have a reason, experience, or know more than they do about the product in question and their competition. It's not internet semantics, it's fairness. At the top of my automotive priority list is help shed light on questions I have by applying the experience and knowledge I've gained from the Subaru industry. I might be wrong about all of this. __________________ The Aggressive™ -- You don't know about it. 1998 Forester S - Big brakes, Big Tires, 5-gears.

09-30-2008, 08:53 PM	#47 (permalink)
The Black Box I can argue with no facts to back me up!! Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,427 Gallery: 0 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Dude- you need to get a life. Here I'll link you to my replies. For some reason you can't accept the fact that I completely accepted Racing Brake's reply but I don't have to agree with it or you. I was like that too in my younger days. LOL. RB calipers vs. Brembo and other calipers RB calipers vs. Brembo and other calipers You obviously have a strong need to prove your knowledge. You can cheerlead for whoever you want and so can I. You are also free to dispute Stop Tech's philosophys if they post here as well but just because someone's "cool" doesn't make me want to buy their product. By the way what kind of "racing" do they do? I don't believe I've ever seen their brakes on a car at the track where there were turns? Yes I can and will buy whatever I want. Unfortunately you seem to need to control other people's thoughts or opinions. It's still a free country last I checked. Sorry Fuquad. LOL. __________________ '08 XT LTD/MT Last edited by The Black Box : 09-30-2008 at 08:59 PM.

09-30-2008, 09:03 PM	#48 (permalink)
BAC5.2 iMod Contributing Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 7,252 Gallery: 0 iTrader: 3 / 100%	I really dislike the propagation of misinformation. I was simply correcting the misinformation you were spreading. I don't dispute Stoptech's philosophy. I agree with it completely. But what you don't seem to comprehend is that RB follows that philosophy as well. In no way am I trying to control other people's thoughts. I am actually putting fact out there. To attempt to mark me as a fascist shows that you are certainly stuck in younger days than I. __________________ The Aggressive™ -- You don't know about it. 1998 Forester S - Big brakes, Big Tires, 5-gears.

09-30-2008, 09:18 PM	#49 (permalink)
sea-scooby The Sub kit guy Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Renton, Wa Posts: 7,594 Gallery: 0 iTrader: 40 / 100%	If "control other people's thoughts" means provide useful and documented information so people can make an informed decision, then your are totally correct. BAC5.2 has always provide good fact based information, where all I see from Black Box is aggressive and factless responses. Black Box- The whole problem here was started by you. Your first post was basically a slam against RB. "+1 but there's no bling factor or "racy" name...LOL Don't waste your money on bling rotors. There's just no proof that they offer any improvement over stock besides the seller's splashy website, nothing empirical." Why post something like that why you have no experience with their products. You also said "I prefer Stop Techs philosophy over Racing Brake's" but you get defensive when it is shown that RB has basically the same philosphy. Your getting all work up about calipers, when the OP was asking about rotors. __________________ 05 Forester XTi Premium M/T (PRE tuned VF39)(his) 05 Forester X A/T (hers) My Journal page

09-30-2008, 09:43 PM	#50 (permalink)
The Black Box I can argue with no facts to back me up!! Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,427 Gallery: 0 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Wow. I answered Fuquad's question and offered sound advice regarding the rotors which you have conveniently ignored in defense of someone. Unfortunately my opinion on rotors differ from the majority but I understand people need validation for their purchases. I don't have to agree with you nor do I keep trying to ram anything down your throat. It doesn't matter how hard someone plays with their slide ruler, I don't have to agree with their choice. Whatever, I don't have to agree nor does it matter if you like the tone of my responses. It's a technical forum not a debutantes ball. LOL. Boy you guys need to get a room... __________________ '08 XT LTD/MT

09-30-2008, 10:08 PM	#52 (permalink)
BAC5.2 iMod Contributing Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Gaithersburg, MD Posts: 7,252 Gallery: 0 iTrader: 3 / 100%	You didn't offer sound advice. Your advice was an unsubstantiated claim and a jab at a supporting vendor. Real mature. The facts of slotted vs. blank are just that. Facts. A slotted rotor will provide better performance than a blank rotor. Whether or not you will see these effects is moot and not the question at hand. And to say that you shouldn't go comparing a Forester to a "real sports car" is foolish. Physics doesn't care if the brakes are housed behind the wheels of a DB9-R or a Geo Metro. Physics is physics. The comparisons are well documented on many respected sites. Stoptech has a blurb about the use of slotted rotors in high performance applications, and just about every big-name race team in the world is running a slotted rotor of some sort. There is a reason, and it's not because it looks "bling" or "racy". __________________ The Aggressive™ -- You don't know about it. 1998 Forester S - Big brakes, Big Tires, 5-gears.

10-01-2008, 07:19 AM	#54 (permalink)
sea-scooby The Sub kit guy Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Renton, Wa Posts: 7,594 Gallery: 0 iTrader: 40 / 100%	I think the Brembo blanks are a very good value, but my main issue with them is they rust very quickly. I was tired of the rusty bad looking stock rotors and I didn't want to deal with that again, so I spend $20 more per rotor for one that will not rust. Maybe it is just a superficial thing, but we all do care about the looks of our cars to some extent. Now if I was tracking more often, I have a dedicated set of Brembo blanks just for it. Good price and good performance. __________________ 05 Forester XTi Premium M/T (PRE tuned VF39)(his) 05 Forester X A/T (hers) My Journal page

10-07-2008, 04:54 PM	#60 (permalink)
The Black Box I can argue with no facts to back me up!! Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,427 Gallery: 0 iTrader: 0 / 0%	If you seriously can say with a clear conscience that any of this matters to someone who only drives on the street there's really nothing more to be said. __________________ '08 XT LTD/MT

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