Help me troubleshoot this...About 8months ago I was getting some moderate pulsating vibrations during braking. Dealer replaced pads and re-surfaced all 4 rotors. Fast forward about 6months (approx 6k miles later), and the vibrations started again. Over the last month things have gotten worse.
Now getting significant vibration and steering wheel shudder when braking at anything above 40mph. I've got what seems to be a slight alignment issue which causes some drift when I take my hands off the wheel, but no significant vibrations at any speeds when not applying brakes.
Seems like the obvious culprit is warped rotors. If this is the case, is it not unusual for this to occur about 6 months after re-surfacing?
I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they have to say. I assumed that because the rotors were resurfaced, there was only going to be a 30 or 60day type of warranty.
As far as braking habits, I'm fairly conservative. I made it to about 55-60K on the originals.
What brake pads are you using? I had the same problem with my previous car (GDA WRX). Tried everything (proper wheel nuts torque, rotor skimming, bed in pads, etc) but the problems kept coming back until I switched back to original Subaru pads.
ceramic pads are rotor killers. has nothing to do with driving habits. raybestas professional rotors and service grade ceramic pads are my recommendation. cheap at rock auto. pads won't last like the originals but you should be able to reuse the rotors. gee, i thought cutting rotors was a thing of the past but i guess new rotors from the dealer would be mighty salty.
One of the reasons resurfacing is sometimes "controversial" is exactly what happened here. Turning rotors is not an exact science and never guaranteed to fix anything. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the rotors are in such bad shape you can't detect a problem till, they fail 6mo later.
I recommend replacement of the rotors. It is normally recommended to replace the pads at the same time, but if it was me I wouldn't.
One possible situation is you have a sticking caliper. Basically the caliper continues to maintain contact with the rotor even when the breaks are not in use.
I would check the pads, callipers, and all mating surfaces for rust, improper wear, and check for one wheel being hotter than the rest with a IR thermometer. That could narrow down an issue , or eliminate a common issue/symptom.
Every Subaru brake job I've done has found the caliper sliders poorly lubricated, to almost none at all. It is mandatory, IMO, to refurbish the sliders... using the proper lube with new seals. The brakes will NOT work properly otherwise... including, but not limited to, excessive wear of pads and rotors.
Also, and often omitted, is the full bedding procedure for the pad/rotors.
Any reason why the steering wheel shudder/vibration would vary from day to day, and even sometimes during a single driving period? Occasionally, I can hit the brakes and get little to no vibration, minutes later can turn out to be the exact opposite.
Even assuming the brakes were properly bedded after the pads and rotors are new, the FIRST thing I do at the slightest hint of what you're describing is to re-bed the brakes.
To re-bed I use the same procedure as the initial one. Also, before there is any such issue, sometimes I do it anyway, proactively.
Often, actually TOO often, when this conversation comes up with friends, it almost seems like they don't hear me, or understand the word "bedding"... focusing on "new pads and rotors." Bedding brakes is a serious and mandatory part of ensuring brakes work... or I can almost guarantee that sooner, rather than later, I'll hear about another set of pads and rotors to cure their recurring brake issues.
Too many people do not understand that it is not the pad nor the rotor that provides the braking action. Rather, it is the pad material bonded to the rotor during the bedding process. It's a subject that should be thoroughly studied, and employed religiously.
I had this problem with my 2001 Subaru Outback starting when the car was relatively new. The rotors were resurfaced, which cleared up the problem for a while, then the vibrations on braking started again. I got the rotors resurfaced whenever the pads needed replacing. It was the same cycle over and over. Fine at first, then vibrating brakes. Eventually, the rotors needed to be replaced. That fixed it! I have not had any vibration on braking since that time, many years!
op stating the shudder can vary day to day or stop to stop
sounds like deposits on the rotors , very common with peeps that are easy on the brakes
I recommend going out on a remote road and getting in the brakes very very hard a few times , at least 10-15 times , actually until they just start to lose braking power or begin to fade.
to do this properly , start at 60-80mph and slow to 10mph , should be in the brakes hard enough to activate abs or just get it to tickle your foot , it's also common to smell the brakes "burning" . avoid complete stops , if you come to a spot where you have to "stop" slow down a few hundred feet early and roll as long as possible without stopping completely and/or minimize stopped time - this is very important - see below
what most people don't get right doing this is they are not hard enough on the brakes , or enough times , also do not come to a complete stop . after you've "cooked" the deposits off , drive the car normally for 10-15 minutes to cool the brakes evenly . stopping/parking the car while they are glowing hot can destroy the rotors and pads .
I got a chance to do the "bedding" procedure yesterday. Had a helluva good time repeatedly slamming on the brakes at 70mph :rock:
Unfortunately, the steering wheel shudder is still there, although to a lesser degree. I didn't see the brakes smoking, but I could definitely smell them. I couldn't find an area where I could get up to 70, hit the brakes, and repeat back to back without maybe an 1/8mile of driving between runs. I'm wondering if I got things hot enough and if it would help to repeat the entire sequence again.
Other things I noticed...the rotors actually feel smoother now than before. After about 5mins of coasting around at 40-50mph with no braking, the rotors were all registering between 300-400F, except the front drivers that was about 550-580F. Not sure if that is a significant enough difference to indicate a problem with that caliper.
I'd probably replace the rotors and pads and clean/lube up everything.
sanding the rotors abit to remove the pad deposits might help with your current ones but they sound pretty gnarly and its a repeat problem.. so I'd guess that would be a waste of effort.
Tons of aftermarket rotors that are good.. Many pads not so good.
I have had quite a few that needed the pad "ears" ground down to fit right
The one that was twice as hot is probably sticking due to either crusted/rusted in place pads.. or caliper slides.
I use pastelub on the pad contact points (not the friction surface of course)
and sil-glyde on the caliper pins.. some of the permatex stuff will swell the rubber on the caliper guide pin.
I'm going back and forth with myself between those and the HP Plus when I do the ATS-V brake upgrade. Do you have/will you do a review on them? I'm actually very happy with my HPS setup right now. It's a vary linear under usual braking conditions with no more than a medium pedal input. Now under idiot traffic braking, with hard but not pedal to the floor input, they will put you through the windshield!:grin2: I'm going to start auto-x-ing soon and maybe doing some smaller track track days. I'm in the process of the rest of my chassis bracing/rear control arm upgrade, parts start arriving tomorrow. Now if we could just get my Stage 2 dialed in properly...
I guess that's why we are never really done modding/improving/changing our rides!>
To add to motorbykemike's info. (And I value his opinion A LOT!)
Before you do the bedding I would take a scotch brite pad (or similar) to the surface of the disks. You should even do this on brand new rotor and especially if you are keeping your rotors and say just upgrading pads.
The goal is to remove any pad material that could be contaminating the disk surface. Once you do that you should be good to go, fresh start, on bedding in the pads to the rotors.
I did it to my brand new slotted fronts and the stock rears when I upgraded my braking system. (we just used some sandpaper that was laying around the shop...) This is one of those things, that has a high probability, the dealer does not do. It's important with brand new rotors, even with stock subaru parts, to get the manufacturing deposits off of the rotors so you are starting with a clean slate when the pads hit the rotors. The bedding process is a two fold thing, one is a proper heat cycle, two (especially with ceramic or semi-ceramic compounds) is to deposit the pad material evenly on the rotor. For those of you just upgrading pads this is super important when you are using a pad with a completely different manufacturer and compound. Having the old compound on the rotor will not mesh well with the new. Even with proper bedding you still might get shimmying, shaking, bumpy feeling under light to moderate braking.
On my '15 FXT I've had absolutely none of these issues. I bedded in the rotors in accordance with the front brake manufacturer's method which was 55 and 45mph at the abs tipping point down to 10 and repeat several times. It's really important to let them cool down naturally after heating them up so I would even bump up the regular drive time to 15-20 minutes. (it depends on whether you'd be jumping on a freeway or not) once the regular drive is done. Park the car for at least 30 minutes before venturing out again.
On my '99s and my '06 premium I continually had these issues with the stock brakes drove me absolutely bonkers!
I back the Hawks all day long. I'm running the HPS (Blue Box) Front and rear with slotted fronts and and stock rears. I also did stainless lines, ATE RBF-200 complete flush, and the Brake Master Cylinder Brace. The brace is highly recommended if you do a lot of heavy braking or if you find your car doing the shaking or pulsing thing under moderate to hard braking. There's video's online showing how much Subaru's MC move, under braking, due to not reinforcing the firewall properly in that area. This pulsing can also cause the steering wheel shake feeling. This is due to the fact that if the MC is moving/pulsing it is not evenly, and properly, applying brake pressure to the entire brake system. So you can have uneven pressure distribution side to side. Heck When we were doing my brakes at my mechanics he was blown away by how much the MC was moving when we were bleeding the system. We hadn't tightened the brace down yet.
This issue was so bad on the 1st gen Foresters, like my 99s, a company was making a whole firewall/Pedal assembly brace. This was for anyone with the five speed manual. People were actually breaking the pedal as their firewall had already cracked.
I have Hawk 5.0 Performance pads on mine and like them a hole lot.
My wife's cars has been totally different experience. I have put on at least 6 sets of pads in 120k. At one point she was going through stock pads in less than 15k. She is tough on brakes and the 98 has up sized rotors front and back . The only pad to last until it wore out without shudder has been Stoptech Street Pads. They are dusty but perform great and no uneven pad deposits.She is on her second set now and I'm a happy camper - less work for me.
Wire brush to the hub surface and to rotor and to wheel. Subaru factory pads. Premium centric rotors. Properly lube the sliders!!! You don't need to embed at 70+ I had better luck making soft gradual slows not stops about 20 times. All of these things fixed my same issue. 06 WRX.
Again, thanks so much for the advice. The Centric Premiums sound good. I remember using HPS pads (green and white box?) on my Maxima years ago and they performed well, so I'll likely go that route. Can anyone confirm that the Hawk pads do not have to be ground down to fit?
It really burns me to be buying new pads again after 6 months, but I don't want to risk screwing up new rotors either. Now I'm debating if I want to get the 5.0's for another $22 :icon_rolleyes: Only real concern is that I've read some complaints about the pads being quiet at first and eventually becoming noisy.
they may be the best all around street pad i have ever used and I have used many
fairly easy on the rotors , a bit dusty but not really any more than the hps , the dust does not kill wheels , progressive feel , ample warning if they are getting near overheating , quiet
I agree and have them on my car but if you have repeated pad deposit problems try out Stoptech street pads.
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